what course next?

[DevonDiver]

I normally show them a comparison dive plan from some deco software. (I use deco software a lot to help illustrate dive planning and build 'expectation management). Not only can they 'see' their air requirements etc... but the plans will normally go into deco.

You can also easily show them some 'just deeper' and 'just longer' (and both) contingencies... and see their eyes open as they note the air consumption and deco that builds up. When they see that a few minutes longer and a few meters deeper can quickly put them into a scenario where they don't have enough air (on an AL80) to complete the 'emergency' deco that gets added on.... they take deep diving a whole lot more seriously. Especially when the previous lesson was an in-depth look at DCI and it's consequences. I often illustrate that lecture with exerpts from the DAN and BSAC annual incident reports...

 

[String]

Sorry, but it seems you have forgotten the AOWD course with the mandatory deep dive. Ok, one dive to 30m is not much and it is not enough, but nobody is taught to dive to 18m only and than sent to 40m with the hint that it's exactly the same.

You assume they went to 30m on the deep dive. They have gone to 19m.

You can get away with pretty much anything at 18m. Even a polaris impression is unlikely to injury if you dont hold your breath. That at 40m is far more serious. Its all about polishing and checking the skills that might be lax but "adequate" for them to survive at 18m are in fact at the level it wont bite them on the arse at 40m.

 

[explorer08]

You assume they went to 30m on the deep dive. They have gone to 19m.

You can get away with pretty much anything at 18m. Even a polaris impression is unlikely to injury if you dont hold your breath. That at 40m is far more serious. Its all about polishing and checking the skills that might be lax but "adequate" for them to survive at 18m are in fact at the level it wont bite them on the arse at 40m.

Don't you see it, even if I follow your argumentation, you agree with me. :shocked2: You don't mention anything within the Deep Diver course that you have to learn particularly for diving to 40m.
It's just a tool for filling the gaps previous instructors left to your students.

 

[DevonDiver]

Don't you see it, even if I follow your argumentation, you agree with me. :shocked2: You don't mention anything within the Deep Diver course that you have to learn particularly for diving to 40m.

1) Narcosis awareness.
2) CO2 awareness.
3) Accelerated air consumption at depth.
4) Emergency decompression procedures.
5) Redundant Air.

Those are all either specific to the deep course, or specific to deep OW diving.

General skills that need to be refined for deep diving include:

1) Dive planning.
2) Situational awareness (depth, time, gas, buddy, nav)
3) Ascent techniques.
4) Contingency planning and procedures.
5) Gas management.

It's just a tool for filling the gaps previous instructors left to your students.

It is a perfect vehicle for that. But then, so is any con-ed course.

Even if the base level of skill is good, there is always room for refinement. I believe that deep diving needs refined skills.

 

[explorer08]

1) Narcosis awareness.
2) CO2 awareness.
3) Accelerated air consumption at depth.
4) Emergency decompression procedures.
5) Redundant Air.

Those are all either specific to the deep course, or specific to deep OW diving.

General skills that need to be refined for deep diving include:

1) Dive planning.
2) Situational awareness (depth, time, gas, buddy, nav)
3) Ascent techniques.
4) Contingency planning and procedures.
5) Gas management.

I don't see, how any of these points is specific to the deep diver course. Don't you need that all for dives to 30m as well?
As an AOWD you are entitled to dive to 30m, so don't you need that all as an AOWD diving to 30m?

It is a perfect vehicle for that. But then, so is any con-ed course.

If I need courses just for filling gaps from previous courses, there is something wrong within the system. IMHO a course is a place to learn something new. The repetition of previous stuff and refinement of skills is only a side effect.

Even if the base level of skill is good, there is always room for refinement. I believe that deep diving needs refined skills.

I absolutly agree, but IMHO the course is just for learning how to do something, the rest is exercising. And I guess you will not argue that you can do much more in a course with 4 dives than to teach how to do it. The refinement takes much more time and comes later with exercise.

So what is new and beyond the scope an average AOWD needs for diving to 30m as well, in the Deep Diver course?

 

[myscubastory.com]

By all means ! you should give it a shot! However make sure tec is what you want out of diving because it gets quite expensive. As an instructor i know that the tec side doesnt really appeal to me. I prefer diving within recreational limits and equipment as most amazing reefs are above 35metres. Also I really like the conversion process associated with teaching total beginners to diving!

Regards,

 

[DevonDiver]

I don't see, how any of these points is specific to the deep diver course. Don't you need that all for dives to 30m as well?
As an AOWD you are entitled to dive to 30m, so don't you need that all as an AOWD diving to 30m?

Not really... there is a big difference between a 20min NDL and a 6 minute NDL. Awareness is important on all dives... but it is critical at 40m.

+ Narcosis generally starts at 30m.

Refinement is a matter of skill tuition.

You learn all you need to know about driving when you take your initial license test. But that doesn't 'train' you to drive in the Paris-Dakar rally.

If I need courses just for filling gaps from previous courses, there is something wrong within the system. IMHO a course is a place to learn something new. The repetition of previous stuff and refinement of skills is only a side effect.

So, by your logic...a newly certified OW diver should have all the skills needed to step into technical training?

I absolutly agree, but IMHO the course is just for learning how to do something, the rest is exercising. And I guess you will not argue that you can do much more in a course with 4 dives than to teach how to do it. The refinement takes much more time and comes later with exercise.

Well... that's your definition of a course. I see a course as any tuition that develops you. Yes, divers need experience to cement their skills - but a development course fast-tracks that, by providing feedback and amendments.

Fundies is an excellent example. Buoyancy, trim, propulsion and dive planning. It's OW skills.... but it isn't.

OW divers learn to propel themselves - typically with a flutter kick. So when do they get to learn how to frog kick, modified flutter, helicopter turn and back kick?

OW divers learn how to ascend - typically vertically. So when do they get to learn how to ascend under control horizontally? How to hold a safety stop with accuracy for longer periods of time?

More importantly... when do they get to learn what the higher standards of skill are? What they can achieve and aim for? How they can practice? What drills they can use? What the skill tolerances should be?

So what is new and beyond the scope an average AOWD needs for diving to 30m as well, in the Deep Diver course?

As they say in Thailand... "Same, same, but different".

 

[explorer08]

Not really... there is a big difference between a 20min NDL and a 6 minute NDL. Awareness is important on all dives... but it is critical at 40m.

+ Narcosis generally starts at 30m.

Refinement is a matter of skill tuition.

You learn all you need to know about driving when you take your initial license test. But that doesn't 'train' you to drive in the Paris-Dakar rally.

Absolutely, difference is 14 minutes. All the rest you can't learn within 4 dives. It's a question of experience and training. And your example is a perfect one because you don't need any specific licence for the Paris-Dakar rally, you just need experience and training. So why do we need special licences for every fart in diving?:thinking:

So, by your logic...a newly certified OW diver should have all the skills needed to step into technical training?

It seems you didn't really read my previous posts in that thread. But let me summarize what I consider necessary prerequisites for technical diving:
OWD (of course)
AOWD
Rescue
EANx
and at least a minimum experience of 100 dives, preferably under various conditions.

Well... that's your definition of a course. I see a course as any tuition that develops you. Yes, divers need experience to cement their skills - but a development course fast-tracks that, by providing feedback and amendments.

Fundies is an excellent example. Buoyancy, trim, propulsion and dive planning. It's OW skills.... but it isn't.

I agree up to some degree, but than you should name it what it is and not give it the appearance of being something new or additional. Again your example is a good one. The name "fundamentals" implicates that it's basics.

OW divers learn to propel themselves - typically with a flutter kick. So when do they get to learn how to frog kick, modified flutter, helicopter turn and back kick?

OW divers learn how to ascend - typically vertically. So when do they get to learn how to ascend under control horizontally? How to hold a safety stop with accuracy for longer periods of time?

More importantly... when do they get to learn what the higher standards of skill are? What they can achieve and aim for? How they can practice? What drills they can use? What the skill tolerances should be?

Fundies would be a good place for it.

 

[TSandM]

If Melbourne isn't too far from you, there is another GUE instructor there, too -- Nick Schoeffler. I know Nick and have gone diving with him, and he's a real good guy.

 

[Spazzy]

Yep, do the Deep specialty and Fundies.