Feeling ripped off by LDS – please advise.

[pescador775]

R&D has been going into rebreathers and swim fins but I dont' see it in flags and regulators. Most regulators are based on 30 year old designs and the "development" process amounts to twiddling and tweaking. However, liability insurance can be stiff. Personally, I don't go to dive shops much. I visited an LDS in JUL 05 in company of a newbie dive buddy. Previously, I had visited a shop a couple times in 1994 and found them helpful with a peculiar problem with a Scubapro regulator. Turns out that the "innovative" MK10 regulator was incorrectly designed and a new spring with different rate had to be installed in the second stage.

The same can be said of almost anything --- a prosthetic heart valve is a few ounces of metal and plastic and yet costs thousands of dollars... much of that goes to R and D, a intense amount of quality control and liability insurance. Profit is what drives development. Without profit, we still would be slugging across the ocean floor in iron-helmeted suits. Nothing costs much in terms of materials, exempting gold and precious metals and gems. What does a car costs in terms of metal and plastic, a few hundred bucks? And the most expensive computers are based on silicon, mere sand.

 

[Nemrod]

"Sorry for the flame, but even in the Auto Parts business with minimum runs runs of at least 20K unit/year tooling costs are huge. A good factor would be tooling costs = 8 t0 10% of the annual sales for most companies."

Flame all you want, lol, if you think all this equipment cost that much to make your silly. The costs are spread over the entire run. I don't think they send all of the high priced ones to the LDS and all the inexpensive ones to the online stores. Regardless of the statements, I have seen the books, the markup is huge which is why the disparity in pricing, not only online vs LDS but market to market. A lot of the stuff is made at a single source and then relabled I don't think labels and boxing is all that expensive. Example, an older one but one that comes to mind, Oceanic used the same first stage that Tekna used that ScubaPro used and I think that same first stage was used by several others. I have them--they are identical.

"Auto parts buisness"-what? Who cares.


The flag bouy costing so much more at the LDS is a sad example of poor business practice. Make your own next time. Oh, I have priced machine work and moldings costs for a variety of projects over the years, I am not impressed with that as an excuse. N

 

[CWMurf]

I get so tired of reading these LDS vs Online threas. I do, however, love to read the ones about people buying online on getting screwed. Is everything about saving a buck? I visit my LDS many times a month. Most times I am not even buying something. I just do it to stay involved in the sport when I am not diving. I am glad to see everybody and they are glad to see me. When I do make a purchase, I may pay a little more, but I feel good about my purchase. When I have a problem with it, they are right there to help me. I dont have to ship it back, I dont have to wait for it to be shipped back to me. Thats what a good deal is. When you buy something and you feel good about it. Its not always about price. Its about peace of mind. I enjoy supporting my LDS and I enjoy there support.

It goes both ways. I have a local shop I frequent. I spend $$ there, I dive with the owners and their staff regularly. I do not look for handouts or discounts. I want to support them. They have a boy the same age as mine and I understand what it is like to want to supply a good life for your family. I am happy to share my good fortune with them and their family.

However, I dropped off a piece of gear for them to service. Six months later I picked it back up from them untouched. I had gotten tired of hearing, "I'm still working on it, don't give up, they're a hard company to deal with!". I contacted the manufacturer directly. They had me send it in and they repaired it for free and had it back to me within two weeks. My only cost was shipping to them, not even the return trip. Less than I would have paid the local shop to handle it for me.

This is the second time I have had similar experiences with different local shops and different manufacturers. I can't help but feel that because the profit may have been lower than other projects, mine was pushed to the side. There is such a thing as doing the right thing, and these shops did not. Because of that they have lost a LOT more of my $$ to other operations. If service is going to be a deciding factor, they had better start supplying good service!

It is a shame that online venders actually supply better service than some local ones.

On the other hand, I have a local shop that I drive many miles out of my way just to buy a $5 part from them. Because their service surpasses anyone else local. Their prices are competetive locally, not online. But I am willing to make the drive and pay the price because I feel they are doing everything they can to help me out. They have even suggested out of town and online vendors to me when they felt I would be better served that way.

Have you heard the car repair comercial that says, "We made a customer that day. We didn't make a dime, but we made a customer."? That is what actually giving good service could do for these local shops.

 

[Web Monkey]

So, would you pay $2000 for a home PC at CompUSA when you could buy it online from HP for $600? I mean if it breaks you could simply take it back to CompUSA. If you have questions about its operation, you could call CompUSA. How about if it were used to run your business. Therefore maknig it a critical machine to you. Would you buy local then and accept the $1400 markup?

Not a valid question, since CompUSA generally doesn't stock the part you need or wants to send the machine out for service.

To bring it back to SCUBA, I gladly pay my LDS very close to list price for my stuff, and in exchange, if I need service or custom gas blends, the time required is generally measured in meals (as in "you can pick it up after lunch") than days or weeks.

That's the non-obvious part that most of the new divers miss.

I've only been diving for about 6 years now, but have missed exactly zero dives because my stuff was out being serviced. This includes the SmartCom recall where they gave me a loaner to use for free while it was out.

Terry

 

[shakeybrainsurgeon]

The University of Pennsylvania and Harvard both have such huge endowments that they do not ever again have to charge for tuition to be solvent. Time magazine thus asked the president of Penn why they charge 40K a year, with yearly increases, anyway. Her answer "because we can, and because people will pay it".

The bottom line in a market driven economy is that the price of anything is determined by what people will pay for it, not what it costs to make. Regulators cost 600 bucks because there are enough people who will buy them at that price. Does a Callaway driver really cost 500 dollars?

There is a price/revenue curve for any product. Take a sports arena with 10,000 seats. If the seats are a buck each, that's 10K per game...the place will be filled but not much revenue is generated. If the tickets are a million apiece, you have to sell only one to make a fortune, but you aren't likely to sell even one. As price increases, revenue increases until the price reaches a certain point, then reduced sales begin to offset increased price/unit. The price that yields maximum revenue is the optimal price. This price may vary in different sales formats (on-line vs in-store).

The price is NOT set to be fair, or so that people of modest means can partake in sporting events, or in accordance with the cost of manufacture. The price is set to generate the most revenue. If that price exceeds the cost of production greatly, profit margins will be high (gasoline, for example), if the price barely exceeds the cost of production, margins will be slim (the food industry). It has nothing to do with companies being greedy. They are all equally greedy. To quote Gordon Gecko, greed is good.

 

[PerroneFord]

There is a price/revenue curve for any product.

The price is set to generate the most revenue.

I find it very ironic that in this sport of ours, often the most experienced divers pay the least for their equipment and demand (and get) the most from it.

 

[goodeatsfan]

I believe that ultimately, we shop with whoever we feel most comfortable with. Let the buyer beware. Prices aren't set to reflect manufacturing costs but rather how much people will be willing to pay before it gets too expensive and they choose a competitors product. They run a business and they want to maximise their profits. It's a fact of life.

If your LDS wants you to believe that paying a 50%-100% mark-up over the guy next door is to your advantage, and you choose to believe him, that's your choice. Me, I bought my BCD (BRAND NEW) off eBay at almost half price compared to my LDS, but bought my regs from him. Why? My personal PERCEIVED sense of security and comfort.

As a consumer, we have the right to ask and to choose who we buy from and how much more we are willing to pay between one supplier and the next for any given item. Don't whine about it if you haven't researched your prices before making a purchase. Learn from it and move on.

LDS's are also running a business. If he doesn't know how to control his own pricing strategies, service standards or customer service, IT DOESN'T MATTER if he's the only LDS in a 30mile radius. He'll shut down. If he does it right, even if there're 5 others around him, he'll do all right, maybe even better.

 

[goodeatsfan]

I find it very ironic that in this sport of ours, often the most experienced divers pay the least for their equipment and demand (and get) the most from it.

Well Perrone, you said it yourself, the operative word is 'experienced'. Most of us folks that get "ripped-off" are the NOOBs.

 

[PerroneFord]

Well Perrone, you said it yourself, the operative word is 'experienced'. Most of us folks that get "ripped-off" are the NOOBs.

And where do noobs shop? The trusty neighborhood LDS...

I sense a pattern.

 

[goodeatsfan]

Bwahahahaha Ain't that the truth!