a spin off to the dying a hero thread...

[DevonDiver]

I wondered how many divers have died whilst thinking.."but that can't possibly have happened!".

 

[TSandM]

I had the wonderful experience of getting tangled in the upline (assisted) and having my buddy swim off without noticing, and then having him, of course, put out of air; he came back, I donated, and switched to my backup -- and found no gas there. THAT is a learning situation; I had to think through the reasons WHY that reg had no gas, and recognize that a) I had plenty of time to solve the problem, and b) there was a logical sequence of cause and solution.

Swimming along, breathing off my primary reg and having it suddenly go dry isn't realistic. Even with a blocked dip tube, you'd pull gas from the other tank. Now, of course, we ALL get TOLD we're out of gas during training, and that's primarily to build comfort without a reg, and to teach us awareness of resources. You can do all of that without shutting off a valve.

 

[manni-yunk]

I'm sorry manni-yunk (where on earth did you get that name from?!) I'm not at all sure what standard has been violated by what action. Can you be more explicit?

As to what TM may or may not have said, do you have specific knowledge about this? Again, just what statements have I made that are now "apparently BS"?

First - the name. Its a play on words based on an area (one of my favorites and where I have spent a lot of time living - and still own rentals) of Philladelphia and my name. All of my boats have had this name. I admit - without knowing that it would seem weird.

As to what Tom said - read post 119 and that should clarify.

If I have to be more explicit about what standards were violated - then you are defensing by circular logic and dancing around the thread in general. You know very well what the standards in question have been throughout this entire thread. If an agency clearly states that its instructors CAN NOT turn a students valves off - and the instructor does - would you agree that it is against their standards?

People with much more knowledge than myself have done a good job of detailing which specific agencies have standards which prohibit this action. Whether you agree with the action being "wrong" or not is irrelevant.

 

[Blackwood]

The scenario you described. Why cannot this be done alongside of unexpected failures such as an instructor turning off gas?

It's a different scenario, one gives more options than the other. Gas turned off = no gas = buddy or surface. That's different from you turn it off = any number of options, including those two.

Sometimes after going through a restriction, when I am doing a flow check, I find that my left post has rolled off a bit. So, normal for me.

Maybe I misunderstood. I thought you meant you never had rolloff training.

 

[Sas]

I had the wonderful experience of getting tangled in the upline (assisted) and having my buddy swim off without noticing, and then having him, of course, put out of air; he came back, I donated, and switched to my backup -- and found no gas there. THAT is a learning situation; I had to think through the reasons WHY that reg had no gas, and recognize that a) I had plenty of time to solve the problem, and b) there was a logical sequence of cause and solution.

Have you ever been put in a situation where you have had to wait a while for air to be donated to you? Or something that puts you in a similarly physically stressful situation? It does not give you long, imho.

Your situation is a good learning exercise, but should also be coupled with things that are not so expected and without such a length of time to problem solve.

Swimming along, breathing off my primary reg and having it suddenly go dry isn't realistic. Even with a blocked dip tube, you'd pull gas from the other tank. Now, of course, we ALL get TOLD we're out of gas during training, and that's primarily to build comfort without a reg, and to teach us awareness of resources. You can do all of that without shutting off a valve.

I don't agree. I have had it happen and felt it an invaluable training exercise. A buddy OOA is nothing compared to being blind, OOA and trying to find a gas supply that is a fair way off in my own experience.

 

[Blackwood]

Have you ever been put in a situation where you have had to wait a while for air to be donated to you?

I'd be surprised if anyone participating in this thread has not.

BTW, I added a bit to post 149 after you'd already started responding. It may or may not be of consequence, but I thought i'd point it out.

 

[peterbj7]

As to what Tom said - read post 119 and that should clarify

OK, I hadn't seen that post. All I can say is that all is not what it appears, and I stick to my original statement. I will not be drawn further on this point.

 

[cerich]

OK, I hadn't seen that post. All I can say is that all is not what it appears, and I stick to my original statement. I will not be drawn further on this point.

It is EXACTLY what it appears, I read your posts last night and decided to call Tom, because as I had posted earlier in this thread I could not believe Tom would EVER have approved the waivers nor the other junk you posted as being in IANTD classes.

i was correct, Tom didn't, I read YOUR exact words to him from this thread describing skills you were supposedly taught and that Tom supposedly authorized by waiver and he replied "that's complete BS" (except he said the bad words) He also emphatically stated that IANTD standards prohibit a IANTD instructor turning off a students gas and asked me to post in this thread and state that I spoke with him.

Now, you may not like that I posted this, and may not like that I take such an approach. I guess I'm just not as brave,strong and cool as some tech instructors. That's OK.

 

[Wormil]

It is EXACTLY what it appears, I read your posts last night and decided to call Tom, because as I had posted earlier in this thread I could not believe Tom would EVER have approved the waivers nor the other junk you posted as being in IANTD classes.

i was correct, Tom didn't, I read YOUR exact words to him from this thread describing skills you were supposedly taught and that Tom supposedly authorized by waiver and he replied "that's complete BS" (except he said the bad words) He also emphatically stated that IANTD standards prohibit a IANTD instructor turning off a students gas and asked me to post in this thread and state that I spoke with him.

Now, you may not like that I posted this, and may not like that I take such an approach. I guess I'm just not as brave,strong and cool as some tech instructors. That's OK.

Please post Tom's cell number so we can all call to verify your story.

 

[cerich]

OK, I hadn't seen that post. All I can say is that all is not what it appears, and I stick to my original statement. I will not be drawn further on this point.

by the way it' pretty slick to have spent so much time advocating unsafe instructional techniques and exercises and when called out for it behaving like a politician when caught using his govt credit card in the strip club....