a view from a dive shop

[tplyons]

You sound a lot like the owner of my LDS.

From the get go, the owner of my LDS took the time to explain all the options to me. Took about an hour helping me select my mask, fins, boots, and snorkel, signed me up for my open water course, and let me pick his brain. I used rental gear in the pool and my open water dives, and fell in love with the sport.

Someone from my LDS is at the local quarry almost every weekend, and I will set up near the shop so I can BS with the instructors. I no longer consider themselves business acquaintances, but friends. The owner of my LDS has gone out of his way to tell me what gear not to buy from him, that I wouldn't need at that point in time. He takes an interest in me, knows my habits, and has helped me piece together my kit over the past year, based on what I need for specific training, etc.

What I have with my LDS is a relationship. This is invaluable. I knowingly spend a little bit more to make sure they turn a profit and can stay open. This provides me a place to hang out, BS about gear, and they've even helped me understand better gear THEY DON'T EVEN SELL. This speaks volumes to me, and is 100% worth the extra price.

My LDS owner has what you have: passion. It's a shame when people try to walk all over you, but those aren't the customers worth keeping around. They'll probably do their OW and become vacation divers. It's the ones that take the chance to pick your brain, about diving locations, gear, techniques, etc. that are worth keeping around.

But it's a shame that a dive shop can't survive without the pain in the butt customers.

Long story short, good for you for doing what you love. Best of luck in your endeavors, but should I ever be up in Mt. Kisco, I will surely drop by and buy some gear from a passionate shop owner!

 

[abyss_scuba]

tpylons: is your lds owner Don, he's a great guy and someone I hav refered divers to when they are from that area. As a matter of fact I ususally borrow his space on thoserare occassions he is not at the quarry.

awap: no the price differennce was on reg/bc/computer. You obviously have no need for a lds and I am not trying to convert you. But I do resent the idea that I am trying to take advantage of a new inexperienced diver. As I have said from the beginning I will never be able to sell for what online dealers do, but as several peple here have stated this is a service center. You keep stating I can sell for any price I want, but keep ignoring the basic rule of any business, which is I have to sell for a price that covers my cost and makes me a profit. So in the end my mark up is probably the same as the online dealer but my cost are greater so my ending price is greater. I applaud your resourceulness but just because you can service your own gear doesn not mean others can or even want to. To me it is like my vehicles, yes I know how to change my oil but I choose to have my service station do it. The time I save is worth the cost of having them do it and because they know I am a loyal customer when I need something done right away they will stay longer or work through lunch to help me out.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

forums like these also spell doom for LDS. sorry to put it that way but now you can tap into the experience of thousands of divers not just one or two at a shop. wasn't that the exclusive domain of the dive shop before the advent of this and other diving forums? does that mean that online forums should go away? or that we are taking away form a local business by posting on this forum?

I don't think forums like this spell doom for dive shops ... as evidenced by the fact that so many dive shops are represented here. On the contrary ... helping people make more informed decisions can help the smart businessperson be successful. Just ask the folks at places like Dive Rite In Scuba or ScubaToys ... both of which have become more successful because of their participation in ScubaBoard. I would also suggest that forums like this have contributed to the success of some of the smaller manufacturers, like Deep Sea Supply, Shearwater, Light Monkey, and others who have used these forums to not only enhance their visibility by participating, but who regularly receive free advertising from happy customers who want to share their great experiences with others.

Participation in forums like these are one of the ways that a dive business adapts to a world that increasingly relies on the internet for making informed choices.

As for tapping into the experience of others, that is a two-edged sword. One must always remember that you generally get what you pay for in life ... and some of the advice I see offered in this and other forums is worth even less than you pay for it. One must always be careful when shopping for advice on the internet ... because while most of it is worthwhile, sometimes I read things on here that just make me cringe and worry that someone will actually take it seriously ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[BUDMANOK]

one of the ways that a dive business adapts to a world that increasingly relies on the internet for making informed choices.

exactly

 

[SeaCobra]

It can be tough, as sometimes folks find what they want to hear on the internet, not necessarily what they need to hear. I find it odd that sometimes folks will come into my store or meet me out diving, knowing my experience and pedigree, and debate an issue armed with advice with some internet poster they have never met, nor are even sure actually exists. The internet can be an excellent tool, but can also be fraught with peril.

 

[redacted]

But I do resent the idea that I am trying to take advantage of a new inexperienced diver.

I did not mean to suggest that you are taking advantage of new diver - just that your business model is heavily dependent on and targeted towards new diver. Lots of OW and AOW classes and encouragement to buy new gear from an authorized dealer and service it IAW the manufacturer's recommendation (requirement). And, after a few months, you never see most of them again. So new diver/customers have got to be the focus.

What do you think makes your costs greater than those of a dive shop located at some prime retail location in NYC? I suspect the only difference favoring the NYC shop is volume purchases, which requires volume sales to maintain. You do not have to price match but if you did, it should be a no brainer for customers to chose the local retailer. But you can't be in a different ball park either. I bought my first set of gear at an LDS but was very disappointed with their tech service. I shopped around for my 2nd set and saw no reason to pay $600 for a Mk20/G500 when I could get the same regulator for about $340 elsewhere.

I don't change my own oil anymore either. It was no fun and it was not that expensive to get a good job done quickly and reliably at a retail facility. (But I will be replacing the in tank fuel pump in my car for under $100 since the dealer wants over $1000 for the job.) Not so with my regulators. Although I know how to get parts for my older regs, apparently many authorized dealer don't. Some have even declared them to be too old to service in an attempt to sell new (not better - just new). And then there is the problem of finding a shop with a tech who even recognizes many of my regs.

---------- Post added November 25th, 2012 at 11:05 AM ----------

It can be tough, as sometimes folks find what they want to hear on the internet, not necessarily what they need to hear. I find it odd that sometimes folks will come into my store or meet me out diving, knowing my experience and pedigree, and debate an issue armed with advice with some internet poster they have never met, nor are even sure actually exists. The internet can be an excellent tool, but can also be fraught with peril.

Sure, there is a lot of crazy stuff on the internet. And it is not hard to find conflicting advise, even about such topics as cleaning a regulator. But anyone who blindly accepts expert advise may eventually find themselves with a problem. I was discussing wetsuit protection with a PADI course director once and he tried to tell me that depth did not matter. Even when one of his instructors tried to tactfully steer him away from the idea that compression does not effect insulating performance, he persisted. In this particular case, I opted to quickly drop the discussion. I have no problem debating an expert when his information is questionable.

 

[chrpai]

It can be tough, as sometimes folks find what they want to hear on the internet, not necessarily what they need to hear. I find it odd that sometimes folks will come into my store or meet me out diving, knowing my experience and pedigree, and debate an issue armed with advice with some internet poster they have never met, nor are even sure actually exists. The internet can be an excellent tool, but can also be fraught with peril.

If you have so much experience and "pedigree" then you shouldn't be afraid to debate an issue. Do you want to be an idol or do you want students who think for themselves? The whole "internet poster" thing is B.S.

If we all worshiped the experience and pedigree of our instructors we'd still be diving vest jackets, overweighted, AIR2, no BP/W, no long hose, boat anchor consoles, snorkels, $100 masks, twin jet fins and believing that we should use our dry suit for buoyancy control and that life support equipment needs to be serviced annually by only qualified technicians.

I've been on this board for 10 years and I've learned a lot from "internet posters". Sure, not all of them know what they are talking about but all in all there is really good information out there that you won't get from LDS's.

 

[SeaCobra]

Trust me sport, I have no fear debating scuba related issues in my store or on the internet. I have no desire to be an idol, just the opposite, I strive to live my live as a "nobody" although at least I put my name in my signature. My teaching style is to awaken the thought process in my students, at all levels, because things change and they need to be equipped with a decision making process. And they come away with the difference between a standard jacket bc and a bp/w setup and the merits and drawbacks of both. The know that split fins work well, but not in every situation and they know how to choose a fin to meet their diving needs. They would know that Air2's were not sent to from Hades, snorkels can be useful, but not on everydive, etc. And they would also know that their scuba equipment and investment should be serviced by qualified technicians. Not necessarily the the dive shop employee, but if someone is wrenching on your stuff I hope they some clue as to what they are doing.

But what separates the wheat from the chaff? Whether online or in person? I just feel that the person standing in front of you should be given equal merit to the internet poster you have never met. Now, just because you have a live person with a piece of paper or two, that does not make them perfect. People need to do some due diligence, ask questions. But just because it is not the answer that you want to hear, does make it wrong.

 

[Aqua-Andy]

I always wounder why shop owners come on the internet to complain about the internet. This is the way I see this topic, bear in mind I'm not a business owner just a blue collar working class stiff trying to make ends meet in this crappy economy. When i first started diving and looking to purchase gear I was in sticker shock when I saw the prices in my local shop. When I got home I did what almost anyone does these days, I started comparing prices online and found I can actually afford to purchase gear, just not locally. After doing some research I went back to my local shop to see if they could work out a package deal that would come somewhere close to the online shops prices. To my dismay I got the standard doom and gloom speech about those online shops and how they don't have the overhead that a "brick and mortar" shop has like the cost of a store front, stocking products, electricity taxes and so on. After being scolded at the LDS I went home and did more research only to find out the online shop I was looking at is in fact a brick and mortar store. I have yet to find more than a few shipping warehouses for scuba gear and most all of the online shops are brick and mortar stores that also stock way more products and also absord most if not all of the shipping costs of there online sales. These shops have way more overhead than my local shop but continue to thrive, hell even leisure pro has a store front in downtown Manhattan (now you want to talk about overhead?). I can't say I did not feel lied to, I do see a value to the local shop but there has to be some middle ground. After knowing my LDS owner for a few years i have found out he shops for other products the same way as everyone else weather it be a car or clothing, he seeks out to to get the best deal possible. My local shop has gone through an ownership change and is more willing to help out with prices but you still have to price shop and then present to them what you are willing to pay. Back when I was looking to first purchase a drysuit all my LDS sold was DUI and I don't fit into DUI sizes, the least expensive option was a suit that did not fit right or a special production CNSE for just under $2000. I found a package deal on a Bare NexGen for $800 including undergarments, hood, boots and drygloves. I figure i saved close to $2000 all said and done. My options were to stay in a wetsuit or purchase a drysuit online and dive all year, It was probably the best scuba purchase I have made to date. I have given my LDS quite a bit of money but some of us just can't afford to spend more money than we have to.

 

[chrpai]

Trust me sport, I have no fear debating scuba related issues in my store or on the internet. I have no desire to be an idol...

You're tone indicates the opposite. You came across as "I'm a NAUI CD, how dare you debate me!".

There are plenty of people online who don't know what they are talking about. Frequently that are "professionals"... (Anyone remember Moonbeam?)

FWIW, I am biased toward researching on the internet. It might have something to do with the fact that I've done really well in the IT field despite having never gone to college.