DIR Forum
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The Chairman
Chairman of the Board
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Hell, don't be shy ... they were DA Aquamaster and Thalassamania. The sad part is that you can't even put them on ignore. And reporting them doesn't do any good ... guess who gets to respond to the report?
Pete missed a lot of points ... which could be addressed very simply by asking his staff to enforce the rules that he ... Pete ... posted when the forum was created. As it stands now, it seems the only people who get moderated in the DIR forum are the DIR divers the forum was intended to serve.
... Bob (Grateful Diver)
With respect to everyone posting in this thread, especially Trace, the on-going dialog that Trace is bringing up has a place on SB.
But it isn't in this forum.
This was supposed to be the forum in which fundamental questions regarding 'why is X DIR' - particularly when asked by those who (clearly) find other arguments more compelling - were not to be discussed.
This was designed as a forum for DIR discussions by divers who were fundamentally in agreement, and who sought to refine more complex questions in accordance with some central tenets.
But - as JeffG notes - new divers keep joining SB, and keep asking fundamental questions that not only inquire into DIR but also can be annoyingly challenging. And also as Jeff points out, allowing discussions to occur on why and how are not all bad - particularly in the case of the posts Trace has provided above, they allow (civil) dialog to occur that reaches more divers than would be the case if it all occured in the Zone.
That was the foundation behind having two separate forums.
Agreed there are mod issues. But (agreeing with Jeff a third time,) this is a Discussion Board. There will always be SOME sort of issues. Keeping everyone happy 100% of the time is a utopian ideal - it simply won't occur on SB anytime soon.
If you think it will help reduce frustration and confusion, we can take things one step further.
At the top of each post in the Women's Views forum a notice is inserted that says:
"You are in the Women's Views forum."
We can do the same thing with both DIR forums that reminds people with every post whether non-DIR or anti-DIR rhetoric will be tolerated, or - in the case of the Zone - where it won't:
"You are in the Zone. Keep your Non-DIR spewage to yourself."
If you truly think having a forum where DIR may be discussed with new divers and the 'un-convinced' is a worthless endeavor, we can shut it down.
But I suspect that this would lead to even more debates in the Zone that you would not want to deal with.
Having 2 forums likely works to the advantage of 95% of those who give a crap either way, and I agree that it's the way that things are done that makes the difference. Speaking for myself, I'm open to suggestions. Unfortunately, without either DIR mods or mod differentiation it will be difficult to solve mod-based issues. I'm not convinced, however, that these issues should determine whether DIR questions should be discussed or not on ScubaBoard.
What say you?
But it isn't in this forum.
This was supposed to be the forum in which fundamental questions regarding 'why is X DIR' - particularly when asked by those who (clearly) find other arguments more compelling - were not to be discussed.
This was designed as a forum for DIR discussions by divers who were fundamentally in agreement, and who sought to refine more complex questions in accordance with some central tenets.
But - as JeffG notes - new divers keep joining SB, and keep asking fundamental questions that not only inquire into DIR but also can be annoyingly challenging. And also as Jeff points out, allowing discussions to occur on why and how are not all bad - particularly in the case of the posts Trace has provided above, they allow (civil) dialog to occur that reaches more divers than would be the case if it all occured in the Zone.
That was the foundation behind having two separate forums.
Agreed there are mod issues. But (agreeing with Jeff a third time,) this is a Discussion Board. There will always be SOME sort of issues. Keeping everyone happy 100% of the time is a utopian ideal - it simply won't occur on SB anytime soon.
If you think it will help reduce frustration and confusion, we can take things one step further.
At the top of each post in the Women's Views forum a notice is inserted that says:
"You are in the Women's Views forum."
We can do the same thing with both DIR forums that reminds people with every post whether non-DIR or anti-DIR rhetoric will be tolerated, or - in the case of the Zone - where it won't:
"You are in the Zone. Keep your Non-DIR spewage to yourself."
If you truly think having a forum where DIR may be discussed with new divers and the 'un-convinced' is a worthless endeavor, we can shut it down.
But I suspect that this would lead to even more debates in the Zone that you would not want to deal with.
Having 2 forums likely works to the advantage of 95% of those who give a crap either way, and I agree that it's the way that things are done that makes the difference. Speaking for myself, I'm open to suggestions. Unfortunately, without either DIR mods or mod differentiation it will be difficult to solve mod-based issues. I'm not convinced, however, that these issues should determine whether DIR questions should be discussed or not on ScubaBoard.
What say you?
Provide 3 to 5 actual DIR moderators who can keep the peace in both forums and limit the capacity of other "staff" to get into either forum and muck about. Either undoing attempts at moderation, or baiting, or outright trolling (all of which are currently being engaged in by other staff, mostly DA.. and Thal..)
There are ~10 qualified, reasonably well respected "DIR" participants who are capable. Staff to staff conflicts have caused 2 to quit already. 7 or so left to chose from.
I'm not sure how many times this needs to be said. It's not the new divers coming in asking questions that are the problem.
First, let me apologize to the board if discussions and debates about everything DIR is not welcome in this forum. I assumed that as long as you were trained and dove the system, you had a voice in this forum whether you agreed or disagreed with policies, procedures, or whatever, as long as it was related to DIR and the posters were not speaking out of complete ignorance. It wasn't my intent to troll, but merely voice my opinion as a DIR diver.
Second, I ended up in this thread because I followed a link Kevin R posted and the first thing that I see is a juvenile mockery of the names of two of the mods. You may not like them and I'm sure you're frustrated by the attacks on DIR, but such behavior doesn't bode well for the DIR community. With little interest from many DIR leaders, I know it is frustrating not to have a certified and respected expert to oversee the forum. People like Lamont step up and do their best. If their are no officers, the NCO's must lead. How high in DIR and how much experience do you need before you can understand DIR? The higher you go, the higher other DIR members seem to set the bar.
It seems that Mark has set the bar for me at Tech 2. Funny you should mention that. Bob Sherwood called me from Florida tonight and told me that I need to take Tech 2. He needs more guys and more opportunities to do GUE Tech 2 dives. I thought he was calling to bust my stones about the board. I told him the gist of this thread. Okay, after Tech 2, may I have an opinion?
Mark, I'm not so much name dropping as I am trying to say from whom the info I'm getting is coming. If you were hanging out and playing cards, going to baseball games, and having dinner with your priest or minister, don't you think your social relationship would open you up to information about the church and about religion that the ordinary church-going member would not know? Because of my friendship with certain DIR leaders, I get to hear about DIR - the good, the bad and the ugly both professionally and socially. It doesn't make me any better than any of you who may not have the same opportunity. It merely gives me a different perspective and affects my "faith" much like hanging out with one's priest or minister.
To further answer, you, Mark, I'm not trying to sell anything other than free thought and debate. You'll notice that those who are trying to sell something in SB are pretty good at advertising and they don't spark debates because they want to be well-liked and patroned.
If I came off as insulting to this forum, it wasn't my intent to attack anyone personally. The problem is without officers, the NCO's of DIR, are often waiting for "the word." Many guys at the top are very respectful of others in the industry. Whatever JJ thought of Thal's take on DIR, he would respect Thal's contributions as a diver and scientist to the industry. I have never met a person more diplomatic and respectful in diving when it comes to demeanor and his ability to take criticism in stride. Too many DIR divers take a militant, arrogant, almost Inquisitor approach to others and that is not what is happening in High Springs. For those that dive or train in cave country and through EE, wouldn't the word, "Mellow," pretty much describe Doug, JJ, and the rest?
It was interesting to watch the personal slams and attacks. Guys, I'm just a long time diver who loves diving, divers, learning and teaching. I've been scuba diving since age 13 and I don't think I can grow up and do anything else at 41. Only if my health failed and prevented me from diving, physically or psychologically, would I stop. DIR is one aspect of this sport that I love.
However, the attitude and behavior of many DIR divers that I have experienced and continue to experience in the past decade does take away from some of that joy.
Jeff - you can read this post. It's my last one.
Second, I ended up in this thread because I followed a link Kevin R posted and the first thing that I see is a juvenile mockery of the names of two of the mods. You may not like them and I'm sure you're frustrated by the attacks on DIR, but such behavior doesn't bode well for the DIR community. With little interest from many DIR leaders, I know it is frustrating not to have a certified and respected expert to oversee the forum. People like Lamont step up and do their best. If their are no officers, the NCO's must lead. How high in DIR and how much experience do you need before you can understand DIR? The higher you go, the higher other DIR members seem to set the bar.
It seems that Mark has set the bar for me at Tech 2. Funny you should mention that. Bob Sherwood called me from Florida tonight and told me that I need to take Tech 2. He needs more guys and more opportunities to do GUE Tech 2 dives. I thought he was calling to bust my stones about the board. I told him the gist of this thread. Okay, after Tech 2, may I have an opinion?
Mark, I'm not so much name dropping as I am trying to say from whom the info I'm getting is coming. If you were hanging out and playing cards, going to baseball games, and having dinner with your priest or minister, don't you think your social relationship would open you up to information about the church and about religion that the ordinary church-going member would not know? Because of my friendship with certain DIR leaders, I get to hear about DIR - the good, the bad and the ugly both professionally and socially. It doesn't make me any better than any of you who may not have the same opportunity. It merely gives me a different perspective and affects my "faith" much like hanging out with one's priest or minister.
To further answer, you, Mark, I'm not trying to sell anything other than free thought and debate. You'll notice that those who are trying to sell something in SB are pretty good at advertising and they don't spark debates because they want to be well-liked and patroned.
If I came off as insulting to this forum, it wasn't my intent to attack anyone personally. The problem is without officers, the NCO's of DIR, are often waiting for "the word." Many guys at the top are very respectful of others in the industry. Whatever JJ thought of Thal's take on DIR, he would respect Thal's contributions as a diver and scientist to the industry. I have never met a person more diplomatic and respectful in diving when it comes to demeanor and his ability to take criticism in stride. Too many DIR divers take a militant, arrogant, almost Inquisitor approach to others and that is not what is happening in High Springs. For those that dive or train in cave country and through EE, wouldn't the word, "Mellow," pretty much describe Doug, JJ, and the rest?
It was interesting to watch the personal slams and attacks. Guys, I'm just a long time diver who loves diving, divers, learning and teaching. I've been scuba diving since age 13 and I don't think I can grow up and do anything else at 41. Only if my health failed and prevented me from diving, physically or psychologically, would I stop. DIR is one aspect of this sport that I love.
However, the attitude and behavior of many DIR divers that I have experienced and continue to experience in the past decade does take away from some of that joy.
Jeff - you can read this post. It's my last one.
The Chairman
Chairman of the Board
Obviously, merely stating you are right does not make it so. Emboldening is mine.
Trace, I believe the moderation in question included removing the "juvenile mockery" you pointed out. It's certainly not needed anywhere on ScubaBoard. I don't believe there was an attempt to provide a DIR explanation by those mods: they were just trying to keep things less inflammatory.
While a bombastic response can be cute and fun to read and leveling accusations of nefarious intent certainly adds to the drama, they do very little to add clarity or calm to a disagreement. Somehow feigned (or real) apparent disgust leaves me cold as a tool for discussion.
Don't talk about me behind my back.
All my tech training is IANTD. But (as I've often said), the best thing I did was fundies, and my favorite divers to dive with are DIR/UTD trained. I always learn from stuff posted in these forums - from the good and bad threads. The only ones that bore me are the arguments about arguing.
Not being DIR, I post little here and read a lot. The sad thing is the signal to noise ratio - not the non-dir posts, but the personal attacks. True, there are staff members who do not appreciate DIR, but every one of them (including Pete) want the DIR forums to succeed. They just get burned out at the constant conflict, bashing, tos violations, rudeness, etc. So sometimes it seems like the negativity toward the DIR forums is generated by those who admonish the mods the most for not fixing the self-inflicted issues. Yes, yes, if we just kick so-and-so out the world will be right with itself. Whatever. It has always been this way here, sometimes more than other times.
If we don't feed the dir trolls, they go away. But when we feed them, and then they get fat and healthy, maybe we shouldn't just blame someone else that they continue to hang around for more handouts. This doesn't mean that the trolls shouldn't be sternly moderated. I think they should, and probably a lot better and more consistently than they have been. There is gigantic room for improvement in the moderating here for sure. I am just suggesting that the problems are not one sided, and that it will take posters and moderators alike to improve the condition of the dir forums.
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