Is safe second really needed?

[MXGratefulDiver]

Earlier in this thread I made a statement earlier about my PADI Rescue Diver Training. I wish to be as specific as possible about my recollection:

I was taught an "Unresponsive Diver at Depth" scenario which involves finding a diver at depth where you specifically do not know what has transpired and the diver is not moving. The obvious case is where you conduct a search for a missing diver and come upon the victim under water. No discussion was made of what to do if encountering a convulsing diver and how that might be handled differently.

While I have read certain things about toxing divers and watched UTD's video showing the toxing diver rescue scenario, I am not trained in the subject and all I was trying to say is that if you are asking me what to do about an unresponsive diver with their regulator out of their mouth, I answer I will try to conduct the rescue as I have been trained. Part of that training was to bring them to the surface immediately and refrain from replacing their regulator or forcing your own regulator into their mouth during the ascent.

If you say, "Yes, but what if the diver is suffering from oxygen toxicity?" I would then say I am not trained to handle this scenario. So my statement about not giving a regulator to an unconscious diver only applies to the scenarios taught to me in my PADI Rescue Diver course.

Sorry for the long-winded clarification, but I am very leery of someone reading what I wrote and misapplying it.

NAUI teaches the same thing ... the difference being that NAUI allows me to add the toxing diver skills and scenario to the standard Rescue training.

ALWAYS follow your training ... among other things, it's your liability lifeline in the event things don't go well ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Peter Guy]

One of the things about the toxed diver scenario that has intrigued me relates to the high PPO2 in the lungs/bloodstream of the diver and whether that would have a tendency to protect the diver from anoxic (word?) injury. That is, since the issue is there is too much O2 in the diver's body, would that not keep the heart beating and bringing O2 enriched blood to the brain for a significantly longer time than if the diver just had a PPO2 of .21 (i.e., one ATA) at the time of the toxing and tonic state?

I don't know the answer -- I just have the question.

 

[pittyyofool]

So from what I can tell the non responsive diver rescue procedures changed or I have a rusty memory of my training 10yr ago.
Is it currently recommended that a rescuer NOT supply a non responsive diver with a clean fresh gas supply, unless they are 100% sure that the issue on hand is O2 tox?

If yes, is that one more reason that an octo is an unneeded accessory when diving with people that are competent in buddy breathing?

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

So from what I can tell the non responsive diver rescue procedures changed or I have a rusty memory of my training 10yr ago.
Is it currently recommended that a rescuer NOT supply a non responsive diver with a clean fresh gas supply, unless they are 100% sure that the issue on hand is O2 tox?

If yes, is that one more reason that an octo is an unneeded accessory when diving with people that are competent in buddy breathing?

NAUI's current position for recreational rescue is that if a non-responsive diver's reg is in their mouth, keep it in. If it's out, leave it out and concentrate on getting the diver to the surface as expeditiously as possible.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[TSandM]

In response to Peter Guy's question: Yes, the fact that the diver was breathing an elevated ppO2 prior to convulsion DOES buy additional useful neurologic time. In medicine, if we are going to place a breathing tube, we have to paralyze the patient to do it, which means that, while we are looking and placing the tube, the patient is not breathing. We give patients 100% oxygen to breathe before intubating them, because the additional oxygen in their system will buy us several more minutes of safe time to try to get the tube placed -- up to 8 minutes or more, in someone at normal body temperature and with normal body habitus. Given that many divers will have slightly low core body temperatures as well (and every degree is neuroprotective to some extent) you have a surprising amount of time to retrieve a diver and get them to the surface and still have a good likelihood of neurologic function.

This is, of course, no longer true if circulation has also ceased. But that will not be the case in someone who has toxed, until they drown.

 

[Doc Intrepid]

"ALWAYS follow your training ... among other things, it's your liability lifeline in the event things don't go well"

To bring the thread back to it's orginal topic of "is a safe second really necessary", IMHO Bob's point is under-represented in this thread.

You may not need a safe second in your routine diving, so long as your routine diving remains routine.

"It's all fun and games until someone loses an eye."

If you are ever unfortunate enough to be involved in a diving incident that encompasses a fatality or significant injury; and are caught up in post-incident litigation; and it comes out that you did not have a secondary regulator because you chose not to use one (even though using one is a norm in modern training); and that fact is portrayed successfully as a proximate cause for the harm that occurred; so you are judged partially liable; you may experience unpleasant side effects. These side effects may include intercourse with insurance companies. You may not be on top. You may not like it much.

Given the fact that a safe second is often more effective and efficient in a number of non-routine circumstances (than buddy breathing), plus the fact that non-routine circumstances are seldom pleasant and often high-anxiety in general, having one available is a pretty inexpensive way of increasing your chances of successfully dealing with any number of crises that you may encounter.

FWIW.

Doc

 

[TS_eXpeed]

I'm not sure if it is for the reason of minimizing hoses/drag, but for anyone in that scenario, I really like the safety seconds that are integrated with your low pressure inflator.

 

[rstofer]

I'm not sure if it is for the reason of minimizing hoses/drag, but for anyone in that scenario, I really like the safety seconds that are integrated with your low pressure inflator.

Yup! I had one when I was diving in warm water and it is still on my BC. I am using a BP/W so the BC will stay in storage.

Consider the cold water wetsuit diver and how they might donate their long hose primary. Now they have to control their buoyancy during the ascent from the same device they are using to breathe. It's a bit of task loading to take the regulator out of your mouth, raise it above your shoulder and vent the BC. Maybe you don't have to take it out of your mouth, maybe you do.

Worse yet, consider trying to do that while you are trying to rescue your buddy and control the ascent of both divers. Or, your primary has failed, you are breathing your integrated device while your buddy tries to rescue you and control your ascent. Not all BCs have a dump valve on the upper right of the chest.

I liked my Air II device. It worked well, never free-flowed, breathed ok at 113' but it never occurred to me that when I started diving in cold water the thing would be a liability. I think I have seen the light!

Richard

 

[pittyyofool]

I'm not sure if it is for the reason of minimizing hoses/drag, but for anyone in that scenario, I really like the safety seconds that are integrated with your low pressure inflator.

Yes, the main reason is eliminating hose and drag, as i love to dive in kelp forests thicker than the amazon. (i only know of 3 patties this thick in so.cal) Kelp that has to be pushed threw has a way of catching on EVERYTHING! I am very tucked up neat when I dive and like being a minimalist. What I don't absolutely need is left on the boat because the chances of it just being in the way diving are high. I am so particular as to mount my knife on the inside of my harness cumberbun with the Handel towards my feet, and my computer is belly mounted under a Velcro flap. I have made nylon straps to go between my 1st stage and my shoulder D-rings to limit my valve getting hooked. If it gets caught on kelp that is 1 to many times and something needs to change. A HOG rig would be nothing but a constant fuss and tangle in this environment.

integrated low pressure inflator seconds- read the original post...

 

[nadwidny]

I've been the recipient in OOA situations for real. Once on "octopus" and a few years later with buddy breathing. Unless you're solo, there really is no valid argument for not diving with a backup reg.