"Piece of Paper Syndrome"

[jmcd16]

There definitely seems to be a running obsession with "the piece of paper." After 12 dives, I got a card that said I was an "Advanced" diver -- just because I paid a little more money, had a 30m "deep" dive with some hand-holding, got shoved off a tender, handed a compass, took a few pictures, and had someone point out the nudibranchs. It doesn't seem "advanced" to me -- and I definitely did not go around calling myself an advanced/experienced diver (though I know people from the class who did).

I definitely get the impression that there is more emphasis placed on the paper than the experience. They've developed ways to charge you for everything... want to dive in fresh water? currants? cold water? rivers? kelp? below 18m? with a compass? with a camera? want to be an "underwater naturalist"? That will be 299.99, please.

Having said that... I do believe that education has a serious -- and secure -- place in diving. And I definitely want my rebreather and decompression teacher to be educated AS AN EDUCATOR. Just because he is capable of not getting himself killed... doesn't mean he is capable of conveying to me all of the information/knowledge necessary to be ready to do that kind of diving without him.

 

[Gombessa]

There definitely seems to be a running obsession with "the piece of paper." After 12 dives, I got a card that said I was an "Advanced" diver -- just because I paid a little more money, had a 30m "deep" dive with some hand-holding, got shoved off a tender, handed a compass, took a few pictures, and had someone point out the nudibranchs. It doesn't seem "advanced" to me

Certainly a number of people have expressed similar disappointment with the OW/AOW route, but it also appears that this lack of bang-for-the-buck diminishes drastically as you move up the education food chain. I don't recall hearing many people lamenting the sorry state of their decompression, technical, trimix wreck penetration, rebreather or commercial diving educations, which the OP seems to have wrapped up in a single dive with his experienced friend. My bet would be that for most divers who have taken these types of courses, the actual training and experience are infinitely more valuable than the piece of paper/plastic conferred at the end of the course.

 

[Mike Boswell]

Certainly a number of people have expressed similar disappointment with the OW/AOW route, but it also appears that this lack of bang-for-the-buck diminishes drastically as you move up the education food chain. I don't recall hearing many people lamenting the sorry state of their decompression, technical, trimix wreck penetration, rebreather or commercial diving educations, which the OP seems to have wrapped up in a single dive with his experienced friend. My bet would be that for most divers who have taken these types of courses, the actual training and experience are infinitely more valuable than the piece of paper/plastic conferred at the end of the course.

Yup, and nobody brags about passing third grade either, but I know many who are proud of their advanced degrees. Thing is, we all have to start somewhere, and once you are past the basics, they seem rather...basic.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

My buddy needed to get certified so he could dive on a vacation. He never got certified and actually pretty much taught himself to dive with no serious mentor. We found an instructor who was willing to give him an expedited course, diving from my buddy's boat.

The instructor said her dive wilth him had to be 60 ft or less so she could follow PADI rules. So we first went out and he and I did a 160- 180 ft dive with just a little deco and then he did his certification dive with the instructor.

He never got more than his basic OW certification.

 

[Belce]

You went out and did a dive that you can't even judge the risks, there is a reason why rebreather sellers don't send active units to first time buyers but send a key to their designated instructor. It is because these things can be very dangerous.

Based on what you have said, I wouldn't dive with you or the person that took you on that rebreather dive. Both of you are foolish, careless, and have demonstrated you can't be depended on. And when it comes to diving, I can't think of worse thing to say about someone other than I can't depend on you.

Thanks for posting, I won't dive with you ever, you are an accident waiting to happen and in the express lane.

 

[Thalassamania]

You went out and did a dive that you can't even judge the risks, there is a reason why rebreather sellers don't send active units to first time buyers but send a key to their designated instructor. It is because these things can be very dangerous.

Based on what you have said, I wouldn't dive with you or the person that took you on that rebreather dive. Both of you are foolish, careless, and have demonstrated you can't be depended on. And when it comes to diving, I can't think of worse thing to say about someone other than I can't depend on you.

Thanks for posting, I won't dive with you ever, you are an accident waiting to happen and in the express lane.

I don't know if it was a reasonable thing for him to do or a foolhardy thing for him to do and I really can't know that without knowing both him and his buddy. But I do have to wonder where it is that you get the idea that even for rebreather and mixed gas you can't learn all that you need (if you are the right person) from another skilled user, or even just from a book. There are lots of us who started using CCRs long before there were instructors for the then non-existent manufacturers to send keys to, and guess what? Our survival rate was pretty good, I suspect that those of us who got a MK-15 or some other military unit and a military manual did better, percentage-wise, than have the more recent adopters.

 

[Trace Malinowski]

I've recently been posting in the Diving without Certification thread...

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/basic-scuba-discussions/331834-diving-without-certification.html

and it came to me, that a lot of the posters advocating not to do it, are those with a vested interest in having someone "take a course". DM's, Instructors etc.

I personally know lots of Divers who have Never taken any course beyond the Open Water, and only that just to have a "piece of paper" to get a tank filled. And some of these guys have 3-4000 dives.

I have a dive buddy (we've been friends for 40 yrs) , who's not "technically" an instructor, but he's a Sat-Rat on the Hibernia Oil rigs. He showed up at the house one day, with 2 Draeger Re-breathers, Kirby-Morgan dive hats (complete with voice-gear) , and said "Come on, we're gonna do some "Real" Wreck diving today. Off we went to Brockville to dive the wrecks.

Being used to 1 hour dives; it was totally new to me, to be doing 1 hr Decompression stops!!!! He monitored me (including that I was comfortable), my gear, and our dive times using his skills that he's learned over the years.

So bottom line... This guy is not an "Instructor", he took an "unqualified diver" deeper than they had ever been before, using equipment that I had never seen; and yet I felt SAFER diving with him, than with many of the "Instructors" I have dove with at other destinations.

IMHO, You can have all the "pieces of paper" you want, but it don't mean crap, when it comes to real world experience.

Thoughts?

I agree with you. You can have all the pieces of paper you want, but they don't mean crap when it comes to real world experience. By the same token, you can have all the real world experience you want, but it doesn't mean that you will be able to effectively and safely introduce a diver to a new level or a new technology. Experience may also mean that someone has done something unsafely quite a few times and has gotten away with it.

Not every person who is a teacher of something is very good at it. Likewise, people who are the best at what they do may not always be good teachers.

In dangerous activities such as scuba diving, there is also the element of lifeguarding a student's safety. The best teachers and the most experienced divers may be lacking in this element. You stated that you felt safe, but the feeling of safety is also different than being safe.

A scuba instructor or dive buddy in a mentor role should have:

1. Experience
2. Natural teaching ability or teaching ability fostered through training
3. Good judgment and the ability to safeguard and rescue a student or buddy

While it is possible to learn to do anything without having a piece of paper, certification cards are one tool that will help a student find training through someone who has been certified to teach. This cuts down on the number of complete idiots who might otherwise list themselves as "qualified" to perform as dive educators. Given the availability to locate information on scuba instructors thanks to the Internet, prospective students can research potential instructors. You often get what you pay for and if you are just looking for a piece of paper from someone who has a piece of paper, you may not find a quality instructor.

Some certification levels are safely learned on their own. Others pose a significant risk. When you don't know what you don't know, placing your trust in an instructor is often a good bet. A scuba course from an instructor is also a "trust me" dive in many ways, but that instructor certification places the odds of that instructor being trustworthy in your favor. Rebreather diving is definitely one of the milestone courses that should only be undertaken through an instructor.

Since I don't know you or your friend, I cannot comment on whether your combined actions were foolish or not. If I had to place a bet on it, I'd bet your actions were foolish, but I'm not going to judge you without all the information. However, you have posed a question to a message board with access to thousands of members, many of whom have taken courses from instructors with worldwide reputations for excellence.

I would recommend Jill Heinerth, Jason Fisch, Jarrod Jablonski, David Rhea, and Andrew Georgitsis if you are afraid your instructor won't be good.

Lastly, this is the piece of paper the diving industry is trying to help divers avoid by doing its best to promote quality education. The system isn't perfect, but it is better than nothing and probably helps reduce more of these being filled out as related to scuba diving:

 

[Quero]

And you believe this should be the norm for diving, or only for you?

I believe that it should be the norm, for people who have a friend that they can trust to "show them the way" if that friend has both the Experience and Ability to do so, even if they haven't paid their money to some dive organization that will give an "instructor permit" to a chimpanzee if they submit enough paperwork.

Gambitt, your tone and word choice in this particular post make it clear that your objective is to troll. Nevertheless, since the topic has engendered quite an interesting discussion (apart from the predictable reaction that what you did was highly risky), I'll bite your bait!

I only want to respond to two specific points contained in your post quoted above:
1) it doesn't seem that you are opposed to additional training, but only opposed to paying for additional training;
2) you would prefer to have your instruction from a mentor or a coach whom you regard as your social peer (or as you put it, "trusted friend") rather than a credentialed professional with whom you have no other contact.

Without getting into a defense of credentialing procedures, the merits of instructor training, or the role of professionalism in diver education (excellent insights, like Trace's above, have already been offered on these aspects), I'd like to suggest that you look into joining a BSAC club if you can find one in your area. As I understand it, BSAC instructors work as volunteers and mentors, and as they work in a club setting, there is a social aspect to their relationship with their mentees. Instructors are credentialed through a coaching process under the wing of more experienced association members. I am not myself a BSAC member or instructor so I have no deep knowledge of the system nor vested interest in promoting it, but it does sound like it might be a good fit for you, given your mindset. SB member Edward3c is a BSAC instructor and might be able to shed more light on this.

 

[vinegarbiscuit]

I hardly know where to begin.

First of all, I was a poster in the "Diving Without Certification" thread. I advised against the dive. I am not a dive professional and had no vested interest in telling the OP of that thread not to do the dive. So the opening statement of this thread: ..."and it came to me, that a lot of the posters advocating not to do it, are those with a vested interest in having someone "take a course". DM's, Instructors etc." doesn't hold water as far as I'm concerned. Moreover, you don't have to be a dive professional to see that undertaking a dive that one isn't trained to undertake carries a higher likelihood of problems. Just an individual with a basic understanding of logic.

I agree that there are bad diving instructors out there, just as there are bad plumbers or bad doctors. As divers, its our personal responsibility to get out there and do some research to ensure that the dive professional we pick - at any level, whether it's AOW or CCR training - isn't a muppet. To my mind, the instruction one gets from an instructor who knows their stuff is absolutely priceless. So, to the OP: I'm sorry you've had the misfortune to encounter poor dive instructors whose skills fall short of their stated qualification.

However, that doesn't explain why you, the OP, would do something so asinine as to dive a CCR without proper instruction. The first paragraph of your post read like the beginning of an accident report. That's never a good thing.

Having watched my fiance and two of his buddies undergo training, and eavesdropped on one of their 'theory' sessions, I can attest to the fact that all the skill in the world as an open circuit diver translates to sod-all when you strap a CCR on your back. The most basic skills, from mastering buoyancy and trim, to more esoteric skills like shooting a bag, have to be learned from scratch. CCR divers must also be taught to self-diagnose problems (hypercapnia, hypoxia, etc) and bail out to OC at a moment's notice. Did you do that? I bet not, since teaching those skills - and the student's attaining proficency in them - takes some time. Were you also aware that your friend, despite his skill, is not insured in the event if your injury/death? Only dive instructors carry insurance for those circumstances. In that circumstance alone, the 'piece of paper' is priceless. You were potentially doing your friend a huge disservice by accepting his offer. Your mate may be an experienced CCR diver, but that doesn't mean he can change the laws of chemistry and physics, and bend the fabric of time for you when the excrement hits the extrusion device.

So, this begs the question: why bother posting about your adventures? Validation? You must have known that recounting such shenanigans wouldn't win you much of a support base. Not here, not on this board. To make a point that certification does not equal qualification? Yawn.

The great Steve Lewis of SDI/TDI has stated that "the issue of divers going to sites they have no business visiting, or undertaking dives they're not qualified to undertake is not new nor is it a small problem. The trouble with this situation (the face to face confrontation) is that no matter how diplomatically one approaches it, castigating someone for their idiocy rarely has the desired effect....personally, I am passed trying to deal with people whose answer to constructive criticism is to throw their toys out of their pram."

Suffice it to say: you and your mate did a very stupid thing ,and you happened to live. That's it.

 

[Hoomi]

I suppose if the fundamental goal is just saving money, then perhaps it all falls under the category of, "Ya gets what ya pays for."

I think we should form another certifying agency called CADI, for Cheap-Ass Diving Instruction. Our motto will be, "How the deadbeats and freeloaders learn to dive!"