Which gear is the same as which other gear?

[Open Ocean Diver]

get with @LandonL who is one of the owners of Aqui Watersports. They will have them down there

Thanks just a golf cart ride away. looks like a good group to do some training with. Always wanted to give sidemount a try.

 

[Open Ocean Diver]

PVD coating is a thin film vapor deposition process that is done in a vacuum and is a fairly clean environmentally friendly process. Tradition plating is not as consistent or environmentally friendly as big vats of nasty chemicals are used. Powder coating is totally different process that I doubt they would use on the internal surfaces of a regulator.

So in the end you have a thin metal chromium coating?

 

[Centrals]

Is the kit for the ATX100 the same as the TX100 and TX50? I don't know what changes the "A" indicates.

SAME.


I really do not see any reason to replace the Apeks. As for the service kit, there must be a way to source it even in US!!

 

[tmassey]

I really do not see any reason to replace the Apeks. As for the service kit, there must be a way to source it even in US!!

Depends. And the distinction is very fitting for a thread asking about equipment that is the “same”...

Apeks is owned by Aqualung, who, like most traditional scuba equipment manufacturers, is 100% against service of their equipment by anyone other than an authorized dealer. They will not sell you a kit, and they do not allow their dealers to sell you a kit – and will go after a dealer who is found doing so. So in the United States, unless you “know a guy“, it is extremely difficult or practically impossible to get a service kit made by the company who makes your regulators. (EU has regulations that prevents such dealer lock in, so this is really only true for the United States.)

Now, the (e.g.) Apeks DST first and XTX50 second have been extensively copied. There are therefore numerous companies who sell a regulator with their logo on it that is visually indistinguishable. Not “the same”: I do not *believe* that the factory that makes Apeks regs also makes ones for other manufacturers, though I’m not certain of this. (@cerich might have more authoritative info.) But even so, pretty darn functionally identical, and of course designed to be exactly compatible with the original service kits.

Which means that the service kits made for those other regulators are also, in theory, exactly compatible with the original Apeks regulators! And those kits are extremely easy to get: you could get them from Northeast scuba supply, dive gear express, dive right in scuba, wherever.

But are they “the same”? Hard to say. Apeks does not specifically identify every characteristic of every part in their service kit. Why should they? My understanding is also that there’s something oddly specific in their kits (80 duro O-rings?) which are not common. It’s vanishingly unlikely that the people who supply the service kits for those clone regulators have supplied parts that are truly indistinguishable from an Apeks kit. In the end, they might function 100% as well. Or they may not. You just don’t know.

Of course, these problems can compound. When you look at the evolution of these very similar regulators, many of them started out looking truly identical. But over time, even the clone designs evolve. Either they want to differentiate, or they want to improve (which, sadly, are not always the same thing… ). That may mean that small adjustments to the service kit might be warranted. Maybe a softer or firmer diaphragm, say. Do they clearly define all these differences? No: why should they any more than Apeks did?

If you search for posts @cerich has made in the past, he has openly discussed some of these issues as designs have migrated and evolved from Apeks to Hog to Deep6 to DGX or DRIS… (And back to Deep6 with the Scribble/Excursion!) As the guy having done the designing and building (or, managing the build...) for a couple of different companies, he’s definitely in a position to know.

Of course, this is no different than something like, say, oil filters. When you buy your car, it comes with an oil filter designed to the exact specifications of the manufacturer. But when you need to replace it, what do you do?

You could either go to the dealership and get the service. In that case, they should be using the device made by the original equipment manufacturer: that’s where we get the term OEM. Or, maybe you go to the local quick lube place. They are most definitely not using the OEM part. They’re using a part made by somebody who created an object of the same size and shape that screws into the same place. But very likely with no knowledge of any of the requirements that went into the original filter.

I actually did computer consulting for a company that made OEM oil filters. He talked one day about the difference between his filters and aftermarket filters: the thickness of the paper, the number and shape of pleats, the filtering capability of the paper, how much it opposes the flow of oil, etc. He said you’d be amazed at the limitations the car makers put on the filters that they have to design, and that none of the aftermarket filters bother to even come close. So, when you’re getting that aftermarket oil filter, are you really getting the “same“ thing?

Probably not. But does it matter? I don’t hear of too many engines suffering catastrophic failures because of a bad oil filter. Of course, maybe cars would last twice as long if we used better oil filters...

Probably also depends on what the original car was. Toyota Corolla? I’d probably go with an aftermarket filter. Mercedes? If you could afford the Mercedes in the first place, maybe you should put the right parts into it, too…

I feel the same way about scuba gear. I proudly use regulators that are clearly clones of the Apeks design, primarily because I wish to service them myself, and Apeks has made it very clear that they don’t want me to do that and won’t support me when I do. So I choose to buy regulars from the companies that not only allow but support me in doing that. And I buy their service kits. Besides, the regulators are somewhere between half and 2/3 the price. For me, that’s a win-win!

But if I had spent the money on a premium Apeks regulator? Yeah, I’d certainly want to make sure that it had the proper Apeks parts. Unfortunately, that means taking it to the dealer. Because, while the service kits we can buy in the United States may be dimensionally and visually indistinguishable, there’s absolutely no way to know if they are actually what Apeks wants in the regulator. And a service kit has a lot more to do with the function and reliability of a regulator and an oil filter does in a car‘s engine.

But this really does go back to what someone’s definition of “same“ is. Which is why this entire thread is kind of useless: without a clear understanding of what any one person wants to achieve and is willing to compromise on, it’s impossible to give anything close to a meaningful answer. How are you supposed to do that for a generic audience?

ETA: I Voice dictated this, and of course it wants to use the English word “Apex” for the name of the regulator. I’ve tried to correct it, but I swear I think it’s going back and fixing (ahem) them. So I gave up. You’ll have to substitute the right one in your mind!

 

[Centrals]

I am talking genuine Apek service kits.

 

[tbone1004]

I am talking genuine Apek service kits.

if you are not working for an Apeks dealer, all of the genuine Apeks kits are from the gray market and like @tmassey said, you have to "know a guy". That combined with their asinine pricing policies in this region are why you do not see them very often in the tech diving communities. They are some of the most expensive regulators in this region, it is WILDLY different than what happens overseas.

@tmassey the genuine parts are not guaranteed without flaw though, particularly when a bad batch of HP seats comes through. Apeks had that happen to them about 15 years ago.

 

[tmassey]

@tmassey the genuine parts are not guaranteed without flaw though, particularly when a bad batch of HP seats comes through. Apeks had that happen to them about 15 years ago.

Oh, I know. I had an Oceanic reg covered by a recall for bad parts, a brand new Sherwood Blizzard I returned after three attempts by the shop to get it to stop wheezing below 100 feet, and a brand new Hog doubles set I sent back because of a batch of bad poppet seats that would free-flow even after it was sent back for service (and a too-small exhaust tee that flooded my reg three times in five on a crazy 10-foot-drop water entry on a common dive I do).

In case my write up seemed like a paen for OEM parts and service: I’ve had plenty of bad experiences with products, parts *and* service from an Authorized Dealer (TM). That’s why I’ve decided on self-maintenance. I know I care more than the service guy, and so far it has been within my mechanical capabilities. My Apeks clones are nearing the service interval: as soon as this plague allows, I’m taking the service class.

But that’s my idea of “same”: I use the OEM kit for the regs I own, and I have the service done by someone trained to do it. I just make the choices necessary for that to be me, with easy to get parts!

I never said the OEM parts were “better”, or even “good”, and I don’t want to imply as much, either. They’re just the ones the OEM says you should use. For whatever their reason — and “profit!” is certainly one of them...

Of course, @tbone1004 , you already knew all of that. But I’m bored, and I wanted to clarify!

 

[Sbiriguda]

For recreational use, about everything is the same as everything as long as it has the CE stamp of the European Union approval or a similar approval by local authorities in the US, Japan and other parts of the world.
The rest is a matter of feeling: how YOU feel with that reg in the mouth, how that mask fits on your face, how you feel with those fins, with everything
The product itself must be safe and does the job, otherwise it would not be allowed to be marketed

 

[Scubagaskets]

SAME.


I really do not see any reason to replace the Apeks. As for the service kit, there must be a way to source it even in US!!

O-rings for Apeks gear from Scubagaskets

 

[David Wilson]

Getting back to your question "Which gear is the same as which other gear?", I'll put in my two cents' worth on the subject of all-rubber full-foot fins The Original Equipment Manufacturers supplying this gear to the American, Australian and European market are largely based in Malaysia and Taiwan.

Let's take a model at random, the Scubapro Rubber Full Foot Fin:

Sole detail:

The embossed print provides the country of manufacture (Taiwan) and the code number of this fin design (802). This number appears on fins of the same design made in Taiwan for brands other than Scubapro (e.g. the following Aropec Swift fin):

And here is the Poseidon Diving Systems Rubber Full-Foot Fin. Poseidon is a Swedish diving equipment company that also has its all-rubber fins made by a Taiwan OEM:

Both Scubapro and the Poseidon fins will have come from the same Taiwanese OEM mould, but after different runs where the rubber blend and colour will have been changed. The basic shape is the same, however.

There is plenty more information about western branded rubber fins made in Taiwan and Malaysia if you want it. Let me know if you are interested.