Dive Agencies PADI, SSI, SDI, NAUI, YMCA, ACUC, CMAS

[LACounty4806]

I've seen this thread or it's equivalent on just about every board that is out there. My question is that once the blustering and positioning are over and done with, can anyone really prove that dive training today isn't as safe as it used to be? Are instructors and agencies really turning out that many unsafe divers? Conjecture aside, statistical evidence doesn't really bear that theory out. The number of injuries or deaths in diving over the past 15 years, like the number of new divers entering the sport annually, has basically remained static. Reporting procedures are actually improved so I don't think accidents are slipping through the cracks. I'm curious what you all might think as to why there hasn't been the sort of accident spike that the alarm and arguement here might seem to suggest should have already happened?

Thanks.

 

[Walter]

First, there are no accurate statistics concerning diving accident rates.

Second, 15 years ago the standards of some agencies had already been gutted.

Third, lots of accidents aren't reported.

Fourth, near accidents are never reported.

Fifth, many DM's are no longer divemasters, they've become baby sitters.

Sixth, lots of divers have their butts saved by divers who do know what they're doing.

Seventh, if you don't see the incompetence you either aren't looking or you aren't competent to look.

 

[JRScuba]

In a previous post someone said the Industry is the problem and we are the industry. Being fairly new to the " Industry ", I've run across all kind of divers. Recently dove with a diver that was a rescue diver and was working on being a divemaster. We buddied up with one another. On the first dive we both jumped into the water. I came up after doing my giant stride and gave the "OK" to the boat DM. Looked for my buddy to give the "OK" let's go down and did not see him on the surface. Went under to see if he was in trouble and saw him heading for the bottom as fast as he can go. By the time I got to the bottom ( had ear problems on the way down) he was finning over the reef faster than a speeding bullet. Let me cut this story short. Obviously his training was very good ( OW, AOW, Nitrox, Rescue Diver, Etc), this person missed more than the safety part of the course.
Yes, we the industry are part of the problem and the more "WE" disregard safety and not be held responsible for our actions the worst things will become.

How often do "WE" look at the total picture and see if we are at fault for something? The above diver is just like someone with a drivers license, aimlessly going through life until an accident happens. Then will not take responsiblity for their actions. Everyone has a piece of the PIE. Who is going to make a difference.

 

[Dwain]

Dwain,

How does the motivated student learn skills not taught in the pool?

Walter,

I made an assumption. I assumed that even the poorest instructor would expose his/her students to all the required skills.
The manuals also have the skills required and the techneques for performing the skills explained.
Read, Understand, Practice.
I imagined the instructors primary function during my OW class was to insure my safety.
I was blessed with 1v1 instruction over the course of a few days.

My girlfriend, sister and buddy have been taking a large class with a 9 week classroom/pool portion. ""YIKES" After every class I hear of the skills they practiced and every week I hear a story about somone who is having trouble with very basic skills. Skills that I am assured were taught ad nauseum earlier in course.for instance the skill of clearing a 2nd stage of water before trying to breathe out of it was forgotten many times during the 7th week of training by a college professor.

I'm sorry for running on. I hope this helps explain my thougts a bit better.

Dwain

 

[LACounty4806]

First, there are no accurate statistics concerning diving accident rates.

Second, 15 years ago the standards of some agencies had already been gutted.

Third, lots of accidents aren't reported.

Fourth, near accidents are never reported.

Fifth, many DM's are no longer divemasters, they've become baby sitters.

Sixth, lots of divers have their butts saved by divers who do know what they're doing.

Seventh, if you don't see the incompetence you either aren't looking or you aren't competent to look.

Walter,

The annual reports by DAN suggest otherwise as to wether or not there are statistics to look at. I suppose you can dismiss them by saying they aren't accurate. That's convenient. I would also venture to say that prior to the DAN reports, there was a lot more conjecture about what was really happening and a lot more to be worried about.

As for 15 years ago and standards being gutted long before that, again I ask, where is the evidence of greater accidents spiraling upward in that time period? More divers have been certified in the past 15 years than the 35 years of training prior to that. There should be an increase in the number of accidents if training is that bad. There just aren't.

In terms of accidents not being reported, liability coverage is a major part of being an instructor/DM/Boat operator. I would venture to say that more incidents are reported rather than fewer based upon the current insurance climate. Are you still active as an instructor? Any instructor/DM/Boat operator I've ever worked with knows that follow-up with the insurance company is the first thing they do back on shore. It's basic CYA. That would produce some sort of information.

BTW, were near accidents ever reported? Probably not because they aren't really accidents. Using this as evidence is like trying to make someone prove a negative. It can't be done.

Outside of your observation on DMs, which I concur somewhat with, the rest of your argument is just opinion and anecdotal evidence.

As for competence, I carry the same card you do plus a few more. All I wanted to know was where the evidence was and why we haven't seen anything to support a position that training is really less safe than it used to be. You're support that position like a man shooting blanks. You're just making a lot of noise but that's about it.

 

[Walter]

DAN accident rates are conjecture, No one (including DAN) knows how many divers there are nor (more importantly) how many dives are made, so there are no accurate accident rates.

"As for competence, I carry the same card you do plus a few more."

How can you possibly know what cards I have? If you consider carrying a particular card evidence of competence, you've told me quite a bit about yourself.

I am an active instructor.

"I would venture to say that more incidents are reported rather than fewer based upon the current insurance climate. Are you still active as an instructor? Any instructor/DM/Boat operator I've ever worked with knows that follow-up with the insurance company is the first thing they do back on shore. It's basic CYA."

Have you ever been on a boat where an accident occurred? Sometimes, it happens exactly like you describe, most times, it doesn't.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Walter
I believe PADI's name reconition is the main reason. People are very comfortable with "Name Brand". But some people do not have the time to make a structured class. A good example is a fireman that I certified last year and was on call at odd times. He could not be there say every Thursday night. I must say I was a skeptic with home study at first but I let my students know up front what is expected of them. They generally score above 90% on the quizzes and final exam. It all comes down to the instructor.

I've run into scheduling problems like this with a huge percentage of my students. Every one is busy. I have no problem with special scheduling but I charge for it.

I expect all my students to study at home. I expect them to come to class familiar with the material in the book. However in an OW class I have about 10 hours of material beyond ( but related to) what's in the book. We spend a minimum of 15 hours in the pool. Regardless of what day or time of day this stuff gets done, it must get done.

 

[MikeFerrara]

I've seen this thread or it's equivalent on just about every board that is out there. My question is that once the blustering and positioning are over and done with, can anyone really prove that dive training today isn't as safe as it used to be? Are instructors and agencies really turning out that many unsafe divers? Conjecture aside, statistical evidence doesn't really bear that theory out. The number of injuries or deaths in diving over the past 15 years, like the number of new divers entering the sport annually, has basically remained static. Reporting procedures are actually improved so I don't think accidents are slipping through the cracks. I'm curious what you all might think as to why there hasn't been the sort of accident spike that the alarm and arguement here might seem to suggest should have already happened?

Thanks.

I never said training wasn't as good as it used to be just that it isn't any good. LOL

Statistics? Here's one for you.

In almost 100% percent of the cases where I see divers have a problem they are unable to manage it. Usually they live so nobody pays attention.


And another...
Off the top of my head I can think of several fatalities, a couple injuries and a bunch of near misses that happened in AOW classes (mostly on deep dives) in the last 2 years. Most of these can be read about on this board and some even involved board members.

And another...
Almost 100% percent of the divers I see are strugling just to dive. Their trim is way off, their buoyancy control is nonexistant, they are in the bottom and their equipment is dangling.

And another...

In the last couple of years I've seen ambulances comming and going on almost every trip to a recreational training site. I used to keep count but I've since lost count. Most lived and some didn't appear injured and refused treatment but all were close enough that EMS was activated.

And another...
With my own eyes I see that students spend most of their training time on their knees. They are certified with ZERO experience doing anything midwater so they can't and don't.

And another...
In almost 100% of the cases where a student comes to me for continueing training (like an AOW) the skill assesment reveals that they aren't good enough to leave the platform let alone begin another class. Specifically they are unable to...

Descend with a pause on the way while staying with their buddy and stop before hiting the bottom.

Hover there and remove and replace mask while maintaining position (with buddy)

Share air while holding position.

Swim a marked course while staying together and not silting the place up.

Ascend while staying together with a stop on the way.

And another...

Every free flow that I've witnessed out side of our group resulted in a rapid ascent. Sometimes resulting in injury and sometimes not.

Bottom line...
Most of the time a diver can drop to the bottom, crawl around for a while having no idea where their buddy is or what their condition is and then climb the line back up and not get hurt or have a problem. If there is a problem though, this diver is toast but they'll be one out of only one hundred in a year so nobody will pay attention.

Also most divers dive under some level of supervission and that can sometimes keep them out of trouble.

Most dive training is preparing people to be underwater tourists. They are able to breath underwater without getting killed if they're watched closely. There's a market for that and I guess that's ok but we should stop misleaduing these folks by letting them believe that they have been taught to dive. They haven't.

Agencies and instructors need to stop hiding behind death toll statistics and speak to the fact that their students can't dive for crap.

 

[MikeFerrara]

There is a shop that we run into at Haigh Quarry every time we're there. They tell me that they certify over 400 divers a year and I believe them. The co-owner told me that he certified 75% of those himself. Do the math.

Anyway, they station an instructor on a platform. A DM shuttles a group out to the instructor to do skills. Then the DM guids them back to the entry point (a three minute swim). They do this 4 times and they get certified. DM's continue to shuttle groups back and forth and they're out of there by noon or 1 pm.

I try to get in the water with my students about the time they're leaving because they silt the place out so bad that it's not worth diving.

The agency is aware of the methods and approves. They aren't violating strandards but they aren't teaching diving either.

 

[Walter]

Dwain,

"I assumed that even the poorest instructor would expose his/her students to all the required skills."

Most will. Those that don't are violating standards and should have their instructor card pulled. OTOH, most agencies don't "require" nearly enough skills. Even the ones I consider the best don't go as far as they should in what skills they require.

Most students aren't exposed to and certainly don't master nearly enough skills. I also agree with Mike, these skills should be required to be mastered in mid water. I don't believe any agency requires this.