Dive Agencies PADI, SSI, SDI, NAUI, YMCA, ACUC, CMAS

[MXGratefulDiver]

So the question is, what does anyone propose to do about it ... other than complaining, that is?

Seems to me the "industry" is giving their customers what the customers want. I take calls at our LDS all the time from folks inquiring about dive classes. Usually after I explain the curriculum (12 hours class, 6 hours pool, five OW dives over a two week period) they'll ask about the week-end class. I tell them we don't offer that class, as we don't consider it gives the student enough information or practice to be proficient with the basic skills. More often than not that's about where the conversation ends and the person on the other end of the line hangs up and calls the shop down the street who does offer the class.

So ... from a purely pragmatic viewpoint, what would you propose? Federal regulations to higher standards? The only other option is asking the "industry" to impose restrictions on themselves. I can't think of a single "industry" that would do such a thing ... knowing that their competition is not under any constraint to take that market share by offering the customer what the customer wants to buy.

I can't disagree with the general tone of this thread ... although I think some of the generalizations are a bit broad. I'm only a DM, but I've done nearly 400 dives this year so I tend to see what's going on in our (Puget Sound) area. I've also done well over 100 of those dives with newly-certified divers who come to me because they're interested in working to improve the skills they learned in OW. They run the gamut from wonderkind to those would would be better served taking up some safer recreational activity ... like knitting. I've run across a few who, coming right out of OW can do all the things Walter listed ... although most can't. The majority, however, know what their limitations are and are diving with me because they want to improve. From a practical standpoint, that's about all you can expect from someone who only has a couple hours of bottom time.

Somehow I've gotten the impression that the majority of those who complain about current "standards" are long-time divers who went through those tough classes back in the '70's and are resentful of anyone who doesn't have to do the same.

Personally I don't think it's realistic to expect divers to come out of classes with a high level of proficiency in the basic skills ... it's more realistic to expect them to come out of classes knowing that those skills are, and what they have to do to achieve them. Sadly, I have to acknowledge that too many OW students don't even get that much exposure ... it's amazing to me how many haven't even been introduced to a compass, or to the concept of gas management.

The question remains who's fault is it, really ... the "industry", or a customer base that really wants to take up a recreation without putting in the requisite amount of effort to do it competently?

It's a cultural thing ... put a gourmet restaurant and a fast-food restaurant side-by-side and see which one attracts the most customers. That's what you're up against. No matter how much you (rightly) argue that people should be willing to pay more and invest more in a better product, you will not change many minds.

Oh, and fast food kills people too ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Walter]

What do we do about it?

We post threads like this one.

We tell people there is a difference. They can decide what they want. I have no issue with an agency having low standards. I take issue with people thinking quality of classes are all the same. They aren't. I take issue with misleading people with statements like, "They all have the same standards" or "Agency doesn't matter."

If the majority of people still choose to take the low route (and I expect them to), that's fine. I just want those few who do care about quality to be able to find those classes.

This isn't about complaining, it's about letting people make informed decisions.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

OK ... I can buy that Walter.

But FWIW - I don't think it's an agency thing either. I've worked with recent grads from many different agencies ... and they come with a wide assortment of skills. Ultimately the proficiency with which any student comes out of OW really depends on the emphasis the instructor places on teaching the skills ... and the amount of effort the student places on learning them.

If there's anything I would like to see changed it would be the automatic "pass" that students get simply for showing up.

Barring that, I can only continue to do what I'm currently doing ... donate my time to any newly-certified diver who wants to get in the water and work to improve their basic skills.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Walter]

It's certainly not 100% by agency, but some agencies take pride in quality, others take pride in numbers. While there are certainly exceptions, as a general rule, you can tell the level of training based on the letters on the card.

 

[MikeFerrara]

I agree with Walter. It's a product and if people choose it knowing what it is then who cares?

Those of us who aren't happy with are doing about all we can. I teach a different kind of class and I speak up. I've spoken to some of the agencies also but that was a waste of time.

This week is my last few days as a PADI instructor. I don't think they're thoe worst but I still find that I don't agree with a single thing they're doing (or saying). I also don't feel they do a damn thing to support an instructor who really wants to teach diving well. They want numbers. They even give out little awords for certifying large numbers of students.

Not only do they approve of the kind of class that I described a couple of posts ago, but they prefer it. They have carefully designed their standards to make such a class possible without violating standards.

I can't stop them but I won't pay them. I also won't give them any of the credit for how well my students dive by having their name on any card that I issue because they sure aren't any help.

I'm an IANTD instructor also but really don't think they're stepping up to the plate either although they stay out of the way more at least.

Most new divers only want to buy a card so they can see the pretty fishies on vacation. The few that really want to learn to dive have few options though. The market of people who really want to learn diving for divings sake is very small which is why we have the type of training and marketing that we do.

As long as people realize that it's in the interest of how to best create a market and NOT how to best teach diving, I'm happy. We're selling tickets to see the fishies not dive training. There is so much honest to goodness illogic in the way we teach diving that as an engineer the blatant assault on common sense seems unbelievable to me.

My wife's been pestering me to start my own agency. That sounds like a way to loose even more money than I did with the shop. LOL

 

[MikeFerrara]

Somehow I've gotten the impression that the majority of those who complain about current "standards" are long-time divers who went through those tough classes back in the '70's and are resentful of anyone who doesn't have to do the same.

Not me. The first good class I had was my normoxic trimix class. As a new instructor I was totally clueless and taught the way I was taught to teach. It took a while for me to put 2 and 2 together to get 4 and realize that the reason I saw so many lousy divers was because of the way we trained them.
The more time that goes by and the more I see the stronger I feel about it.

BTW, I think part of the problem is that some things haven't changed from the early days. At one time they had to spend some time on their knees because they didn't have a means of buoyancy control. We still teach diving like we don't have a bc.

 

[LACounty4806]

Originally Posted by Walter
DAN accident rates are conjecture, No one (including DAN) knows how many divers there are nor (more importantly) how many dives are made, so there are no accurate accident rates."

I can tell you with certainty that there are between 1.7 and 2.25 million training dives done in North America alone on an annual basis just at the OW and AOW level. That doesn't even include recreational diving or any othere level of training. Plug in the DAN numbers to that number alone and then tell me about the spiraling rate of accidents based upon watered down training.

"As for competence, I carry the same card you do plus a few more."

How can you possibly know what cards I have? If you consider carrying a particular card evidence of competence, you've told me quite a bit about yourself. "

Walter, you list yourself as a YMCA instructor on your bio. Is that a typo? I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, which you didn't give me when I asked a basic question btw. Is that a mistake?


"I would venture to say that more incidents are reported rather than fewer based upon the current insurance climate. Are you still active as an instructor? Any instructor/DM/Boat operator I've ever worked with knows that follow-up with the insurance company is the first thing they do back on shore. It's basic CYA."

Have you ever been on a boat where an accident occurred? Sometimes, it happens exactly like you describe, most times, it doesn't.


Walter, you're asking me to prove the negative again. Convenient. BTW, how do you know most times reporting doesn't happen? Do you follow-up with people, most of whom are trained from a risk managment standpoint to do so? It's a requirement of their insurance coverage. Are you telling me that most people violate their insurance policy on a regular basis.
Oh yes, I have been on a boat where an accident has happened. Thanks for asking.

Again, give me something tangible.

 

[Walter]

"I carry the same card you do plus a few more"

You know of one card. How do you know what other cards I do or do not have?

"you're asking me to prove the negative again."

I'm not asking you to prove anything.

My experience is charters tend to down play "accidents." I've had to demand they break out the O2 for victims. No, people aren't violating their insurance on a regular basis. While accidents and near accidents occur more frequently than you believe, they are not common enough so that they are a "regular" occurrence on all boats. Fortuntately, accidents are rare. Unfortunately, near accidents and rescues are common. Most of them are the result of the diver being clueless. Every one of these near accidents and rescues could have resulted in an accident. Most would if there wasn't someone competent to save their butts. That isn't necessary. Even if it isn't as common as I believe (because I see it all the time) it should never happen. Better training would prevent it almost entirely.

 

[MikeFerrara]

LAcounty,

I don't know where you dive and I don't know how many accidents there are in the worls but I can tell you this. I see a lot of ambulance traffic. I see a lot of rapid ascent's, buddy seperations and the number of rescues and assists I have to my credit is growing quickly. You loose vis at the local site 1/2 hour after they open for business because nobody can stay off the bottom.

The death toll is low because it's very possible to walk around on the bottom for a while and then climb out without any one getting hurt. That is NOT evidence that training is good. Evedence of good training would be if every one was nicely off the bottom with buddy teams together. People would look relaxed in the water rather than looking like they're in a fire drill. That would be evidence of good training.

I dived for years before getting certified. I didn't get hurt. That doesn't mean my training was good though because I didn't have any.

Hey, how many here have any of those video's that resorts take and then sell to people? I have some. I use them in class to show students what it looks like when divers bounce off coral with all their equipment dangling.

I love the logic....The death toll is low so training must be good? Let me ask you this...is it low compared to what it should be? How many of those divers would be alive if they had even a passible entry level class. Except for the heart attacks, I'm thinking almost every single one.

Two of the recent ones come to mind. The lady with two buddies who got tangled in kelp 5 ft down and drowned with a full tank on her back and this last guy who couldn't connect his bc hose, had his fins off, had his buddy turn his air off and he sunk and drowned. Why don't you tell me about their excellent training? These divers don't posses even the most basic of skills. Explain to me how the classes like I described a few posts ago prepare them to avoid and solve problems in the water.

What a joke!

 

[MikeFerrara]

Speaking of charters downplaying accidents....

My wife and I went out on a recreational charter on Lake Michigan once. BTW, that's something that I won't do any more. It was a little rough and the Captain came around and explained that it was borderline and asked every one individually how they felt about diving. I was an instructor so I was careful to explain that while I was ok with diving that I was only speaking for myself and if he decided to cancel it was ok with me. It was a little rough but not bad by Lake Michigan standards I can tell you that.

There were like 5 other divers on the boat. My wife and I were the only ones who got in a dive. We did the first dive on the Rotarian. It's a nice little wreck at about 70 ft as I recall. Two guys got in first and my wife an I second. We ran into those two on the mooring line at about 20 ft. One of them was holding his weight belt in his hand. I was going to help him get it back on but they were on their way up and I decided that was best. We cut our dive short because we never saw any one else come down and we thought maybe something hapened up top. A girl in another team had her tank fall off in the water pulling the reg out of her mouth. As she choked and climbed the ladder in a panic she hurt herself some how.

I don't remember what the second wreck was but my wife and I got in first. Again we cut out dive short because we never saw any one else come down. All the Captain would tell me was that the other divers had problems.

Oh, because of the wrecks we dived that day I would guess that every one on the boat was at least AOW certified. I suppose some one would like to tell me about the good training these divers had. Shoot, weight belts and tanks falling off...they couldn't even assemble their equipment. It's probably a good thing. It kept them on the surface. Are there a lot of divers in this shape or do they just land in clumps?