Going from BP-wing to Jacket BCD ...

[BDSC]

I can't imagine an experienced diver not noticing a huge difference between the two.

I look at some divemasters and dive pros that just about live in the ocean that have thousands of dives and are using old torn up jacket BC's that have turned all brown from the sun and look like they are ready to dissolve into pieces the next time they take them into the water. I'll bet most of those pros are probably better divers and have seen a hell of a lot more than most people on this board and maybe a better part of the most vocal BP/W users.

ZKY said it quite nicely.

While I can't speak about diving conditions in the cold waters of the Great Lakes or off the coast of California, I can speak about off the coast of NC and the Caribbean. In all the years I have been diving and the hundreds of dives I've done and dozens of trips I've taken, I have never, ever, seen a DM/Instructor at any of these locations wearing a BP/W. One has to wonder if the BP/W was such a superior piece of equipment, why haven't these folks, who practically live in the water, figured this out and noticed the huge difference? Wouldn't they want to make their jobs as easy as possible by diving with what works the best? (Hell, most of these folks even dive with fullfoot fins no less)

What I have noticed is that the whole "BP/W is far superior to the jacket bc and you'll be a better diver if you wear one" is more of a ScubaBoard/internet phenomenon than what you find in the real diving community.

 

[halocline]

I I did a yahoo search for Scubapro history and came up with this bio for Dick Bonin, co-founder of Scubapro.

You're using a specific manufacturer's literature about one of it's own founders as a source for dive history? And you think I'm being 'revisionist?' Although there's no author listed for this 'article' it does say "about us scubapro" (link) at the end so I think it's safe to assume they had something to do with it.

Interestingly enough, I didn't read anything in there specifically about jacket BCs, although I guess you're pointing to this article because scubapro was the first company (that I know of) to develop and market a jacket BC. Well, that kind of supports my statement that the jacket Bc was designed and marketed by the recreational scuba gear industry, doesn't it?

 

[halocline]

In all the years I have been diving and the hundreds of dives I've done and dozens of trips I've taken, I have never, ever, seen a DM/Instructor at any of these locations wearing a BP/W. One has to wonder if the BP/W was such a superior piece of equipment, why haven't these folks, who practically live in the water, figured this out and noticed the huge difference? Wouldn't they want to make their jobs as easy as possible by diving with what works the best? (Hell, most of these folks even dive with fullfoot fins no less)

What I have noticed is that the whole "BP/W is far superior to the jacket bc and you'll be a better diver if you wear one" is more of a ScubaBoard/internet phenomenon than what you find in the real diving community.

I see DMs and instructors in BP/Ws frequently, more and more as time goes on. Many instructors will use jacket BCs to teach in, because that's what their students are using. These same instructors will then use BP/W on their own diving. I suspect as tech diving moves further towards the recreational market we'll continue to see an increase in BP/W use.

And don't forget, most scuba instructors work for the dive shops that are teaching scuba specifically to sell gear that they have in stock...well you get the idea.

Caribbean DMs, IME, use a wide variety of gear, mostly cheap stuff. A few of them have tried my BP/W set up and bought one soon after. Sure, they use full foot fins; me too whenever possible. For warm water I really prefer them. Because of where I live, probably 90% of my diving is in full foot fins. Don't knock 'em until you try 'em.

The argument that "if BP/Ws are so much better, why are they not more popular" has been hashed out many many times. (as has this whole topic...) My opinion is that jacket BCs have dominated the market for a long time and recreational divers are just used to them. And, they are easier to market in the dive shop environment. Mcdonalds and Starbucks dominate their markets too.

Despite the fact that I am a vocal supporter of BP/W on SB and freely say how much I dislike jacket BCs, I have never said that using a BP/W "makes you a better diver".

I'm not trying to be insulting about jacket BC divers in any way; it's just that to me the difference is very noticeable and I'm surprised that someone else's experience with the same type of gear would be so different. But, that's what keeps things interesting around here.

 

[BDSC]

Sure, they use full foot fins; me too whenever possible. For warm water I really prefer them. Because of where I live, probably 90% of my diving is in full foot fins. Don't knock 'em until you try 'em.

I actually love them! Someone did a review a few years back and rated the Mares Avanti Superchannel Fullfoot fins as theri #1 fin. So for like $59 or $69 I bought them and now take then with me when I go to any place in the Caribbean except for Bonaire.

I'm not trying to be insulting about jacket BC divers in any way; it's just that to me the difference is very noticeable and I'm surprised that someone else's experience with the same type of gear would be so different. But, that's what keeps things interesting around here.

I don't think we jacket guys feel insulted and I don't take it that way. As a matter of fact, I just ordered my first back inflate so this should be interesting. I ordered a Scubapro Seahawk. I was in the mood to buy me something new so I thought I'd give a true back inflate a go. I have heard from video and photo people they felt they had a little more freedom of movement in the front and I do video so what the heck. I'll take it with me to Little Cayman next month for a week. Not even going to try it out before I go so it will be a little leap of faith I'll like it.

 

[David_57]

I'm surprised that someone else's experience with the same type of gear would be so different. But, that's what keeps things interesting around here.

Well be surprised as I have used both and the only advantage for me is like I have already said I prefer when diving with doubles and better for attaching my deco bottles added to this the BP/W setup fits all sizes of people but as for trim etc not that big of a difference adjust to either and trim is fine IMHO. Again I am repeating myself here but I have seen many divers with a jacket style BCD with perfect trim and Buoyancy.

 

[Hatul]

Another important issue, at least to me anyway, is the amount of air that is needed in the BC or BP/W at depth. If I am wearing a thick 7 mm suit and 24 lbs of ballast, I will need maybe 20 lbs of lift (air in the bladder) at 100 ft depth to maintain neutral bouyancy at the start of the dive. Some jacket Bc's really strart to squeeze as they approach their capacity, which can be somewhat annoying and even restrictive. Conversely, the BP/W (or back inflate BC) does not feel much different at depth when it is near capacity (no squeezr at all). When I first started using a BP/W, I was surprised how much I had relied upon the squeeze factor, to provide feedback on the ascent as to when I needed to vent the BC. Without this feedback, I tended to let the BP/W expand a little more than I should have on ascent for the first few dives.

So, for warm water diving, where the diver needs to add only maybe 6-8 lbs of lift (air) to the Bouyancy Control device, it matters much less if it is a BC or a BP/W.

That's a red herring because it argues for a back buoyancy BC as much as a for a BP/wing.

Adam

 

[Akimbo]

…I'm surprised that someone else's experience with the same type of gear would be so different. ...

That is much less surprising when you look at anthropometric charts; let alone how differently we perceive cause and effect relationships in our society. Considering the variety of body shapes, human experiences, and brain wiring it is amazing we don’t have to customize all our gear to work at all.

 

[HateCheese]

This board is highly biased toward backplate and wing. To the point that it drives me nuts. It is a tool, and only that. It doesn't make anyone a great diver. It doesn't make you breath like a fish and not require a tank and regs.

If someone has one, they bring it up in all sorts of topics - what light to buy, should I carry a snorkel, etc.

Still, it is only a piece of gear and doesn't make you a tech superdiver that can dive the Marianas Trench..... In many cases it is people who like gadgets and think that by looking like something, that they in fact are what they are geared up like. Kind of like the overweight guy who wears an NFL jersey with their own name on the back - I am not fooled into thinking they are an incredible athlete...

If you dive one and like it, great. If you truly believe that if you had any other type of BCD you wouldn't dive well, then you are placing faith in this tool instead of your skills.

I like seeing nascar stickers on minvans. It makes them WAY faster...

 

[gcbryan]

I think what is going on is that there are many types of divers on SB diving in many different kinds of conditions. There are infrequent divers who dive in warm water and there are very frequent divers who dive in warm water and those who dive in cold water.

A BP doesn't have that much to do with trim. You can have it with whatever you use. Warm water divers talk about the weight of the BP being too much in some cases. Yet cold water divers don't have that issue at all. The weight of the BP is only a fraction of what they require.

Those who like BP's also may predominately like it because of the efficiency of carrying gear, lights, etc. Warm water divers may not use or need that same gear. Most dives (day or night) where I'm located are limited viz and more like night than not so lights are a part of every dive. This doesn't apply to everyone.

These are the reasons that some like a BP so much and others just don't get it. For the most part I think it's because of different local conditions.

Of course, the irritating factor is those who bring up BP's as a solution where it's clearly not the primary issue at hand.

 

[Thalassamania]

All these devices fulfill functions with varying utility:

1. Attaching the tank to the dives body.
2. Providing a sack that the diver may fill with air or empty to adjust your buoyancy.
3. Providing a way to attach items to the diver or store items in pockets.
4. Attaching ballast (lead) to the diver in a way that permits rapid release.
5. Attaching small amounts of ballast to create good trim.

Each BC or BP/w will be better or worse with respect to each of these (and possibly other) attributes. There are some general differences:

1. Attaching the tank to the dives body. BP/w tends to be firmer and more exact ... BC tends to be a bit sloppier.
2. Providing a sack that the diver may fill with air or empty to adjust your buoyancy. BP/w tends to work best if you dive in a horizontal trim all the time, BCs tend to be a bit more forgiving and do not force you into a horizontal attitude, though some BCs do seem to have a "favorite" angle.
3. Providing a way to attach items to the diver or store items in pockets. BP/w permits you to attach rings or pockets just about anywhere you want. Most BCs are rather difficult to add pocket or clips to.
4. Attaching ballast (lead) to the diver in a way that permits rapid release. BP/w may be equipped with pockets that are designed to carry lead, some BCs are designed to carry your lead.
5. Attaching small amounts of ballast to create good trim. BP/w tends to have more options for adding trim weights. Most BCs are somewhat limited, but with some thought this problem is rather easy to overcome.

You pays your money and takes your chances. There are a fair number of devices now that sit somewhere on the continuum between the two pure extremes.