Challenging Poor Buddy Skills -

[Pullmyfinger]

Around here, we tell each other to....."Unf*#k yourself".
That's considered to be positive reinforcement, here locally.

Cheers,
Mitch

 

[bracko]

depends on the environment, like most people have said.

I've just returned from Sipadan where the dive operation catered to backpackers as well as experienced divers. I'm a DM with enough experience to get me out of most problems, I also take my camera and strobe on every dive.

I probably had about 4 instabuddies during the most recent trip including a couple I dived with regularly who were both experienced (him with ~1,500 dives, her with ~200) who also were interested in macro and photography. We moved at the same pace and were regularly about 5-15m apart in 20-25m vis unless there was something to photograph. I consider that as close as I'd want to stay to a buddy (who is experienced) these days. I know i can swim 15m in a short burst quickly if anything goes pear shaped but I like my space.

other instabuddies were not so good. I generally try to keep an eye out when I'm photographing but sometimes it takes a few shots to get something and I do get a bit lost in the moment. one in particular buddy just kept swimming off even though he had a tank banger to alert me that the group were moving on. while I have no issues diving alone, I keep all the necessary equipment on me to stay out of a good amount of trouble (knife, SMB, rattle, surface whistle....) it would have been nice for a customary "I'm following the dive leader, are you coming or not" but he also wasn't an experienced diver, just an experienced talker above the surface. I also had to drag him back down from an uncontrolled ascent on a particularly deep dive.


prior to this I've always dived with the same group who fit into the mould of the first buddy profile. we all dive well as a group and I don't see the point of all being on top of eachother.

as a general rule if I get a, inexperienced or nervous diver I will change my plan and make sure I take as much care of them as a certified, non staff diver can, while still enjoying the dive myself. If that's not possible I will speak to the boat leader and let them know that as a guest I can't dive with that particular person and they need more careful watching from a dive leader, I am not going to dive with a liability when I am paying good money to be in a tropical destination. Sounds selfish, but the 4 weeks a year I get to go on vacation are not there for me so the staff can slack off and dump crap divers on punters.

at the end of the day when you're diving for vacation you don't want clowns running into you, hearing the whistle of 10 poorly maintained hire regs in your ear and people forever tugging on your fins (in Australia, that means something is trying to eat your fin, not a person wanting to show you yet another blue dragon nudi!)

in Australia I'll dive with almost anyone and make the dive plan as per their experience and confidence or mine, whichever is lower and dive the plan accordingly. Generally in Australia I won't let anyone out of eye sight, which can be no more than 5m in some cases.

 

[Foxfish]

So basically three questions

1/ - "How do I confront an 'experienced' buddy about their behaviour"
2/ - "What can I do if the experienced diver is not open to feedback"
3/ - "How do I, as an experienced diver, remain open to feedback from my buddies"

Phil

Good questions and on a frustration that most divers will experience at some stage.

I normally buddy dive but am looking at getting solo diving certification. I'd prefer a good buddy to diving solo. It is safer and I enjoy the social interaction. But when a suitable buddy is not available I'd like the option of diving solo.

Prevention is better than cure. I mostly dive on charter boats in the open sea. The usual dive operator strikes a good balance between flexibility and discipline and I suspect this keeps the 'cowboys' away. They try to buddy you up with someone having similar skills and interests. I've had some really great buddies and in general enjoy the diving experience.

With difficult buddies, the best you can do is state your case clearly at an appropriate time. You may need to be a little assertive. Be prepared to discuss the issue. If there is not room for negotiation and they refuse to comply, you have to decide if you can continue to dive with them. Don't risk your safety!

 

[Phil_C]

I posted the original questions and then sat and thought about it for a while - two things came to mind.

First when I came back to diving I thought I was a good buddy, on refection I am sure I was not. When I re-trained buddy diving was stressed, repeatedly, and I 'knew' the importance of it.

Sadly I don't actually think that what good buddy diving "looked like" was really explained to me. Or else in fairness to my instructors, it may have been, but the reality never sunk in with everything else I was trying to learn and so on.

So for my first dives I stayed close to my buddy, slightly behind them where I could see them and follow like a puppy, they were more experienced after all, and I didn't stray off to look or follow anything or anyone else.

I remember a quarry dive, one of my first Drysuit dives, I'd got about 20-30 warm water dives, but very little cold water experience, poor visibility 3-4 foot only, so the chap I was with wanted to use a buddy line, no problem we used it and I sat just behind him as I had fallen into the habit of doing. Afterwards he paid me a compliment - or so I thought at the time - he said "most of the time I didn't even know you were there, you never pulled against the line once". Go me - perfect buoyancy and no problems staying close !

I got a shock then when I got my first (and most instructive) regular dive buddy/mentor - Thanks Norm, a few years older than me, neither of us are young, an ex cave diver (Florida search and rescue team in the 80's and 90's I think) photo's and tales of himself diving with people like Sheck Exley and so on, Norm just radiates experience and competence. After our second or third dive he told me he didn't like my buddy skills - he was always having to look around for me as he didn't know here I was.

This actually upset me a bit, I was a good buddy !, and I defended myself and said I was always there, just behind him, he agreed - but crucially said he couldn't see me and had to keep looking around to check I was still there. It was some time before the real meaning of his comments started to sink in. So after that first dive with the buddy line it wasn't really a compliment at all, whether it was meant that way or not. It was an indication of my bad buddy skills. The reality - my buddy regularly did not know where I was. My perception of what I was doing was different from the reality from my buddies perspective.

Fast forward another 150 or so dives, Norm now has a new camera, housing and strobes, and a tendency to wander off following fish or whatever, no problem I have adapted and followed him and stayed as a buddy, because we are really good friends. But I have realised another thing, when I dive with Norm these days I don't take my own camera, we would definitely end up separated - I have not approached him about this, or told him that this is at least mildly annoying and that I feel he is unaware of what I am doing or where I am.

So I can see a real need for a conversation to take place between us, we don't dive together every week anymore - job moves mean we can't, but when we do we fall into a comfortable routine, however we have never addressed this issue of buddy expectations.

How will I approach it? - I am not sure, perhaps over a pint and a sensitive discussion. - Phil

 

[bowlofpetunias]

We have a very effective system with our "usual buddies". All bar one have cameras. When we dive as a "team" we still normally have designated buddies.

When someone finds something of interest, they indicate to their buddy they are stopping for a shot otherwise it is a matter to fire off a couple quick ones and maintain contact. We tend to form up in parallel pairings or groupings. While taking pics we check regularly to see where our buddy/team is. We usually send someone to get another team member to share our find. Nothing more frustrating than having to keep looking around because your buddy is behind you or above you.. or worse still no idea where:doh: As long as everyone is commited to being a member of the team/buddy pairing this works very well. Photographers don't need to be bad buddies. What is most important is that people are willing to work together so everyone gets the most out of the dive.

Surge and currents here mean we need to keep some distance between us to avoid bumping into each other.

One of our group has had some medical issues over the last few years. Bad enough that the owner of a LDS was clear about stating that continuing to dive was not a smart thing to do. My though on this has been that adults should get to make their own choices and it is her choice. I thought.. well if it was me, how would I feel if someone told me not to dive.

My feeling has been that I would see a good dive doctor and then make an informed choice about continuing or not. Reading some of the A&I threads has made me rethink this rather selfish attitude. My buddies also should have the right to make an informed choice. I do not, nor does this person have the right to put their buddies at risk physically or emotionally. We had to "rescue" this person once. Fortunately it was a positive outcome. I do not want to have to face a negative outcome should something happen in the future. If something happens diving, it would be the loved ones, friends and buddies who would be impacted. It seems to me that gives them some rights in the decision making process.

How will I approach this diver.. I am still not sure. I confess I am hoping that the current medical problem will result in a decision not to return to diving They still have their right to their decision.. but I have a right to mine. How do you tell a friend I do not want to dive with you?

 

[gypsyjim]

How do you gently tell you partner you want a divorce? Some things you cannot sweeten up enough to taste good.

Either you try to find a way to simply avoid diving with a person you feel is unsafe (cowardly but less confrontational), or you say " I do not feel that diving with you is a safe".

 

[teecup]

That being said, I was wrong to assume that good friends make the best dive buddies.

I posted the original questions and then sat and thought about it for a while - two things came to mind.

First when I came back to diving I thought I was a good buddy, on refection I am sure I was not. When I re-trained buddy diving was stressed, repeatedly, and I 'knew' the importance of it.

Sadly I don't actually think that what good buddy diving "looked like" was really explained to me. Or else in fairness to my instructors, it may have been, but the reality never sunk in with everything else I was trying to learn and so on.

So for my first dives I stayed close to my buddy, slightly behind them where I could see them and follow like a puppy, they were more experienced after all, and I didn't stray off to look or follow anything or anyone else.

I remember a quarry dive, one of my first Drysuit dives, I'd got about 20-30 warm water dives, but very little cold water experience, poor visibility 3-4 foot only, so the chap I was with wanted to use a buddy line, no problem we used it and I sat just behind him as I had fallen into the habit of doing. Afterwards he paid me a compliment - or so I thought at the time - he said "most of the time I didn't even know you were there, you never pulled against the line once". Go me - perfect buoyancy and no problems staying close !

I got a shock then when I got my first (and most instructive) regular dive buddy/mentor - Thanks Norm, a few years older than me, neither of us are young, an ex cave diver (Florida search and rescue team in the 80's and 90's I think) photo's and tales of himself diving with people like Sheck Exley and so on, Norm just radiates experience and competence. After our second or third dive he told me he didn't like my buddy skills - he was always having to look around for me as he didn't know here I was.

This actually upset me a bit, I was a good buddy !, and I defended myself and said I was always there, just behind him, he agreed - but crucially said he couldn't see me and had to keep looking around to check I was still there. It was some time before the real meaning of his comments started to sink in. So after that first dive with the buddy line it wasn't really a compliment at all, whether it was meant that way or not. It was an indication of my bad buddy skills. The reality - my buddy regularly did not know where I was. My perception of what I was doing was different from the reality from my buddies perspective.

Fast forward another 150 or so dives, Norm now has a new camera, housing and strobes, and a tendency to wander off following fish or whatever, no problem I have adapted and followed him and stayed as a buddy, because we are really good friends. But I have realised another thing, when I dive with Norm these days I don't take my own camera, we would definitely end up separated - I have not approached him about this, or told him that this is at least mildly annoying and that I feel he is unaware of what I am doing or where I am.

So I can see a real need for a conversation to take place between us, we don't dive together every week anymore - job moves mean we can't, but when we do we fall into a comfortable routine, however we have never addressed this issue of buddy expectations.

How will I approach it? - I am not sure, perhaps over a pint and a sensitive discussion. - Phil

 

[Rich Keller]

I usually dive alone so if my buddy wonders off they are not putting me at risk but they may be putting themselves at risk so I would stick with them for the rest of that dive. If they are not willing to listen to reason after that dive I would find another buddy if needed or just dive alone. Another problem may be your assumption that they are experienced in the first place. I do not go by what someone tells me about their experience, I just observe how they operate in the water. If they are not good in the water it does not matter how much training and equipment they have. In the case you refereed to, that diver had a lot of experience in general but not with the equipment being used on that dive. She was showing and expressing that she was having difficulty with the equipment. On that day she was not good in the water and should not have been left alone.

 

[Foxfish]

Fast forward another 150 or so dives, Norm now has a new camera, housing and strobes, and a tendency to wander off following fish or whatever, no problem I have adapted and followed him and stayed as a buddy, because we are really good friends. But I have realised another thing, when I dive with Norm these days I don't take my own camera, we would definitely end up separated - I have not approached him about this, or told him that this is at least mildly annoying and that I feel he is unaware of what I am doing or where I am.

So I can see a real need for a conversation to take place between us, we don't dive together every week anymore - job moves mean we can't, but when we do we fall into a comfortable routine, however we have never addressed this issue of buddy expectations.

How will I approach it? - I am not sure, perhaps over a pint and a sensitive discussion. - Phil

Things have changed. You are an experienced diver and want more of a say in what happens on the dive. I think it would be reasonable to expect that your buddy starts to show more respect for your wishes on a dive. If he finds that difficult you could suggest taking the lead on some of the dives. That means your buddy needs to follow your directions and pace. You are the best person to decide how he would react to that idea. If it seems unlikely your may need to find another buddy.

I've found that with good buddies this is not usually needed. Somehow you share the lead and both get some say in where you go and what you want to see.

If it is a guided dive then I follow the dive master.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I posted the original questions and then sat and thought about it for a while - two things came to mind.

First when I came back to diving I thought I was a good buddy, on refection I am sure I was not. When I re-trained buddy diving was stressed, repeatedly, and I 'knew' the importance of it.

Sadly I don't actually think that what good buddy diving "looked like" was really explained to me. Or else in fairness to my instructors, it may have been, but the reality never sunk in with everything else I was trying to learn and so on.

So for my first dives I stayed close to my buddy, slightly behind them where I could see them and follow like a puppy, they were more experienced after all, and I didn't stray off to look or follow anything or anyone else.

I remember a quarry dive, one of my first Drysuit dives, I'd got about 20-30 warm water dives, but very little cold water experience, poor visibility 3-4 foot only, so the chap I was with wanted to use a buddy line, no problem we used it and I sat just behind him as I had fallen into the habit of doing. Afterwards he paid me a compliment - or so I thought at the time - he said "most of the time I didn't even know you were there, you never pulled against the line once". Go me - perfect buoyancy and no problems staying close !

I got a shock then when I got my first (and most instructive) regular dive buddy/mentor - Thanks Norm, a few years older than me, neither of us are young, an ex cave diver (Florida search and rescue team in the 80's and 90's I think) photo's and tales of himself diving with people like Sheck Exley and so on, Norm just radiates experience and competence. After our second or third dive he told me he didn't like my buddy skills - he was always having to look around for me as he didn't know here I was.

This actually upset me a bit, I was a good buddy !, and I defended myself and said I was always there, just behind him, he agreed - but crucially said he couldn't see me and had to keep looking around to check I was still there. It was some time before the real meaning of his comments started to sink in. So after that first dive with the buddy line it wasn't really a compliment at all, whether it was meant that way or not. It was an indication of my bad buddy skills. The reality - my buddy regularly did not know where I was. My perception of what I was doing was different from the reality from my buddies perspective.

Fast forward another 150 or so dives, Norm now has a new camera, housing and strobes, and a tendency to wander off following fish or whatever, no problem I have adapted and followed him and stayed as a buddy, because we are really good friends. But I have realised another thing, when I dive with Norm these days I don't take my own camera, we would definitely end up separated - I have not approached him about this, or told him that this is at least mildly annoying and that I feel he is unaware of what I am doing or where I am.

So I can see a real need for a conversation to take place between us, we don't dive together every week anymore - job moves mean we can't, but when we do we fall into a comfortable routine, however we have never addressed this issue of buddy expectations.

How will I approach it? - I am not sure, perhaps over a pint and a sensitive discussion. - Phil

Speaking from experience here. I've had dive buddies tell me at times that since I started solo diving, my buddy skills aren't what they used to be. Some feedback I've taken positively, some not so much. A great deal of it depends on how it's put. This guy's your friend for a reason ... you've developed a mutual respect for each other. People who respect each other tend to react positively to honest feedback that's put in a constructive way ... and often rather negatively when it comes across as criticism. We're all different, of course, and different people react in different ways to the same situations. But my advice would be to start by telling him what you just told us ... how much his input into your buddy habits affected your diving ... and that you'd now like to offer some input into how his buddy habits are affecting your diving. It's understandable that changing circumstances like carrying a camera (I do that too) or solo diving tends to change how someone thinks about their diving. But a commitment to a buddy is a commitment that must be taken seriously ... and that requires communication in both directions.

The effect of that communication usually depends entirely on how it's presented. I once told someone I highly respect and care for that I didn't think we should dive together anymore ... because I found the feedback from this diver to be presented in a way that was just too hard to take. When I dive with my friends, I want to be able to relax and enjoy myself. If I'm constantly worried about that person being overly critical, I won't be having much fun ... which negates the whole point of diving with them. Thankfully we've since reached an accommodation ... and the same feedback put in more constructive terms has an entirely different response from me. The same may be true of your friend.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)