So you want to take your kid diving...

[ZenDiver.3D]

I think perhaps you missed the point. It's not about the risk of the kid hurting the parent, but one of the kid being less capable of helping the parent in an emergency - as well as lack of claimed oversight for the kid when the parent is injured.

All divers should be able to assist their buddy and problem solve. ALL. That includes children. If the child cannot be a full functioning buddy, they should not be certified. The same should be said for adults.
My daughter was 10 and my son was 12 when they certified, because they had to be able to bring me or my husband (6"1' and 225lbs), up from depth in an emergency. Haley was ready at ten and more than capable of problem solving. She was black water river diving at 10. She was ready. Some are, some aren't. The instructor and parents have the responsibilty of determining that.

As dark as this thread is, it raises a great point. My boys are 6 and 8 and I'd love to get them enrolled in a scuba rangers(or other child program) in the near future. However, when you weigh the risk, not only of the potential for death, but also for the unbearable guilt felt by the surviving party, I find myself pausing and thinking maybe I should wait another 10 years or so before even introducing them.

Survivors guilt would be felt no matter what the situation, if the parent dies. Any adult would feel the same about their buddy. Don't let that keep them from diving if they are ready and capable. You cannot live in "what if's."

It probably depends on the particulars. I know for a fact that some of my diving is way more dangerous than my commute to work. But I bet some of the other dives are less dangerous. I would not take my 12 year old in a cave but I might take her to the quarry.

I think this whole argumjent is specious anyway. If you extend the argument it would mean that we should never dive with anyone we care about because of the guilt we would feel if we were unable to save them. If you reject that argument because kids are different the I ask what is it that makes them different? Basically, its their physical, emotional, and mental maturity.

So we come full circle and the question becomes: when is someone physically, mentally, and emotionally mature enough peform the skills and to recognize and accept the risks inherent in the sport? I'll leave that as an open question that has been dealt with in many, many threads over the years.

I agree. Even many adults cannot lay claim to the last. That is subjective and individual.

Well hell, I guess this thread is going to fail with so many under the delusion that scuba is no more dangerous than driving, hiking, hunting, etc.

I have less than 500 dives and I have seen 6 others leave by ambulance, 3 barely surviving - just does not compare.

Then I really have to question your diving practices and the people you dive with. I have thousands of dives all over the world and I haven't seen that many. Not even close. Something is very wrong, if those numbers are so.

I'm kinda glad I grew up when I did ... back then we were allowed to do stuff without some well-meaning adult wanting to stuff us in a box to keep us safe till adulthood ... maybe if we allowed kids to assume more responsibility for themselves these days, they'd grow up a bit more responsible ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Ditto. I even had lawn darts!

Not six from your own boat tho.

This is a whole other thread, to address all the problems with that.

Well Don ... that post doesn't tell me that diving is dangerous ... it tells me your friends are dangerous.
... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I absolutely agree. Don, please don't project your experiences and personal stats to the rest of the dive world.

I had a sorta scarey dive incident this weekend with my 12 yr old kid. To make a long story short, I was not watching him closely enough and he could have been seriously injured.

He wanted to take his speargun on an 80 ft drift dive this weekend, but since the current was very strong (over 2 kts) I said "no, too much current" It is too easy to get separated and things can get out of control too easily.

He then begged me to carry my pole spear, to defend himself from sharks. I reluctantly agreed, but told him we never see sharks on this dive.

We were diving with another diver. I shot a smal fish that I had with me. Pretty soon an inquisitive 6 ft carribean reef shark shows up, he was kinda dogging us, trying to get closer etc. Eventually at the very end of the dive, the other guy slammed the shark really hard with hsi gun and it finally left us alone for the last 3-4 minutes.

We were out the whole day on the water and on the drive home in the truck, my 12 yr od kid asks me if i noticed that the back of the shark was a little tore up. I said "no, not really, why?" He said that during one point in the dive we were 20 feet from him and the shark came in on him pretty hard and he had to jab it with the pole spear and this ripped the skin up some.

I've taught him that if a shark comes in close enough to jab with a gun or a spear, defintely DO IT. Apparently he followed orders, thought nothing of it and waited 5 hrs to even mention it to me.

I had thought that I was keeping a good eye on the 90 lb kid and 100 lb shark the entire time, but apparently not. I never saw any portion of the incident (and it probably occured in 5-8 seconds) but I was pretty disappointed in myself; he was more bummed the video didn't come out.

I guess sometimes diving is more dangerous than driving a car.

Nope.Your kid did exactly as he should have and sounds like he was well trained and knew what he was doing. Good job.

Driving HERE is absolutely more dangerous. Real stats here - Kuwait averages 1.6 deaths per day from auto accidents per year. There are only 3 1/2 million people in the whole country.

Thanks but I didn't mean you. I was referencing the others suggesting that diving was no more dangerous than driving. Appreciate your input.

It definitely can be. Location, location, location.


At the end of the day, if your child can take the full adult course alone and perform all skills, plus problem solve, then they are buddy material. Yes, you should have appropriate levels of respect and seriousness for this sport that it deserves. So should your child. And they should fully undertand what is and is not within their control. They would feel unbearable pain and loss with your death, no matter what the situation. And they would feel irrational guilt no matter what. It human nature and heartbreaking. Comfort them. Don't bubble wrap them.
Life is short, so go on and live it.

 

[EastTNDiver]

I don't know the numbers, and I don't even care to look them up, but let's say there are 1 billion drivers in the world... now let's put 1 billion divers in the water and see how the stats change.

You're missing the point. Regardless of how the two statistically compare, thousands of people are killed every year in driving mishaps, yet we routinely throw our kids in cars and take off down the road. From my observations, most don't give it a second thought. We are conditioned to see it differently because it's mainstream, and basically a necessity for most people. Even in light of the risks, I've never once seen anyone suggest that someone take an advanced driving course or emergency first aid before putting their kids in a car. And here, I'm just talking about kids as passengers...and, don't even want to get into how ill prepared most are when cut loose on their own. I stand by my point...people unduly gasp at the idea of kids diving because it isn't mainstream.

 

[Rhone Man]

I was thinking about this thread a bit in a different context last night:

• When they were young, my kinds watched my wife battle with cancer. She didn't die, but she could have. No doubt that would have been traumatic for them. Diving or not diving doesn't seem to me to much change the odds of your kids having to deal with trauma.
• Can my kids effectively rescue me if I experience extreme difficulty whilst diving? Probably not, but they are better help than nothing at all. And as someone who dives solo a lot, nothing at all is what I plan for.
• Will diving (hopefully) enrich my kids lives? I like to think so.

Decision made.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Thanks but I didn't mean you. I was referencing the others suggesting that diving was no more dangerous than driving. Appreciate your input.

See post 50, Don ... you can believe whatever you choose to believe, but the statistics would bear out that diving is no more dangerous than driving. So those who are suggesting it are, in fact, correct ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

At the end of the day, if your child can take the full adult course alone and perform all skills, plus problem solve, then they are buddy material. Yes, you should have appropriate levels of respect and seriousness for this sport that it deserves. So should your child. And they should fully undertand what is and is not within their control. They would feel unbearable pain and loss with your death, no matter what the situation. And they would feel irrational guilt no matter what. It human nature and heartbreaking. Comfort them. Don't bubble wrap them.

Indeed ... well-meaning protectiveness usually only ends up inhibiting a child's ability to grow and learn how to make responsible decisions.

Every child should be evaluated on the merits of who they are. I've known 12-year olds who can handle responsibility better than many adults. One only has to read Don's post about all the adults he dives with to realize that simply being over the age of majority isn't a good standard for judging someone's fitness to dive.

Conversely, I've known other 12-year olds who cannot handle responsibility at all. This group are generally those who have been sheltered all their lives and have never had to face the reality that actions have consequences. Kids who learn that young often make good divers and good dive buddies.

Scuba diving is less about your ability to rescue someone than it is about the ability to make good decisions. And even the former can be successfully taught to divers at the OW level and at a young age ... as NAUI instructors have been doing for years.

Life is short, so go on and live it.

Indeed again ... "yesterday's history, tomorrow's a mystery, today is a gift and that's why they call it the present". Diving's a great way to give your kids the gift of today ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[g1138]

Maybe we should refuse to let our kids ride in the car with us. I don't have the stats, but I bet that's much more dangerous than diving. Something to think about...

I think honestly that the stats are skewed because almost everyone spends more time driving than diving.
Same reason why more people die by bee stings than shark attacks. It all depends on how often you expose yourself to risks. So I don't think that's a valid argument to make. You can say it's more likely to get hurt in a car accident, but more dangerous? I don't think so.

 

[Jaydubya]

Anecdotally, I have been in one car accident (very minor) while returning from diving but have never been in a dive accident. It's a small sample and proves nothing. I still contend that I am more likely to be injured driving to and from the quarry than actually diving at the quarry. I would not say the same for some of the offshore diving or cave diving that I do.

 

[DandyDon]

See post 50, Don ... you can believe whatever you choose to believe, but the statistics would bear out that diving is no more dangerous than driving. So those who are suggesting it are, in fact, correct ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I saw the post with unexplained numbers called stats.

Whatever - thanks for the discussion folks. Some good points...

 

[CuracaoJ]

Since it's raining at work, and slow as heck, I was curious to see if I could get an apples to apples comparison. Now, as an academic caveat, none, not one iota of this information is from what I would call a "reliable" source. Not that it's junk, but someone claiming to compile info from DAN and DOT etc. is not the same thing as the raw data. Also all of the auto rates seem to be USA specific (which of course is a lot lower mortality rate than say some small country in Africa). I found about 4 different places that listed mortality rates per/hrs of activity. They all seem to come pretty close to this post I found on another board:

All:

Activity per million hrs
-------- ---------------
Skydiving 128.71
General Aviation 15.58
On-road Motorcycling 8.80
Scuba Diving 1.98
Living (all causes of death) 1.53
Swimming 1.07
Snowmobiling .88
Passenger cars .47
Water skiing .28
Bicycling .26
Flying (scheduled domestic airlines) .15
Hunting .08
Cosmic Radiation from transcontinental flights .035
Home Living (active) .027
Traveling in a School Bus .022
Passenger Car Post-collision fire .017
Home Living, active & passive (sleeping) .014
Residential Fire

So, it looks like Scuba Diving is roughly 4x more "dangerous" than driving in a passenger car. However, the flip side to that is, of course, that most of us will spend factors in the 100s more time in an auto with our children than Scuba diving with them.

FWIW.

Jeff

 

[bleeb]

So, it looks like Scuba Diving is roughly 4x more "dangerous" than driving in a passenger car. However, the flip side to that is, of course, that most of us will spend factors in the 100s more time in an auto with our children than Scuba diving with them.

This got me thinking. A 'typical' number thrown around for serious recreational scuba diving accidents is 1 in 10,000 dives (resulting in significant hospitalisation, including non-precautionary hyperbaric chamber rides). If the typical driver (on the road 3-5 times per day) had the same accident rate, this would imply a serious accident (total car and/or extended hospitalisation) every 7 years. Seems most of us are better drivers (or passengers) than that, and also that most cars survive for more than 7 years.