Tech through PADI or TDI?

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We are in a thread answering a man's question and I'm reading about lift bags, industry trends and accidents. I get we all have our favorite hobby horses, debates and opinions... but must they splatter all across any thread no matter it's topic or how unhelpful to the the op the discussion has become?

Labelling this off topic and unpleasant discussion as "transparency" is ironic while it simply looks like petty bickering, posturing and word games from here. I have experienced better things from my fellow professionals then this thread is demonstrating.

If you'd like to debate, kindly attempt the clarity of speech, dignity of careful listening and respect for the audience that's fitting for industry leaders. Also, I would recommend a specific thread and a clear topic so the rest of us don't need to watch this public trainwreck unless we'd like to.

Regretfully,
Cameron

P.s. if someone would prefer this as PM material I'll do a quick edit of my post. I have respect for you guys as divers and trainers and frankly I expected greater professionalism seeing those involved.

In answering the question of AGENCY preference, the organizational culture, guiding philosophies and operating policies of a given agency are definitely worth consideration.

Individual instructors define the standard of tuition provided on a course. Beyond that, the question is ALL about organizational culture, agency philosophy and how they implement those in the diving industry.

If someone is choosing a tech TRAINING COURSE, they should choose on the basis of the individual instructor.

If, however, someone is choosing which AGENCY which they might affiliate and attach themselves to, then there are far broader issues to consider.
 
A dive operation in Cozumel that does not take OW students beyond 60 feet will be out of business in no time. The same would be true if they refused to take customers through swim throughs without some kind of certification. Imagine if an operator in Truk Lagoon or South Florida or the Philippines refused to let divers enter wrecks without wreck certification. If any agency tried to impose such rules on an operation, that operation would be switching to another agency in 5 minutes.

This kind of mentality is what is wrong with the industry! And by the way, the following isn't directed necessarily at John - I just happened to pick his quote above because it is a common example of the mentality of the majority of the industry - that I found interesting enough to comment on. So don't take it personally John - my critique is for the purpose of open discussion about bettering the industry - not disparaging you:

1. When operators blatantly ignore certification levels, it devalues post ow training / certification. Why would ow divers ever think they need to get additional education and training if operators are telling them they don't need any overhead or deep training to dive Devil's Throat in Cozumel?! So arbitrarily picking the biggest agency (replace the word padi with another fitting agency acronym if you prefer), padi operators are basically telling padi clients that additional padi courses are unnecessary. I submit that everyone with this mentality is looking at the issue the wrong way. While i can appreciate operators being afraid of losing clients if they deny taking them on dive outings beyond their certified levels - so they take under certified clients diving anyway, I submit that those padi operators actually losing perspective post ow education students by telling those ow under certified divers that post ow education is not necessary!

2. Operators should look at certification limits as opportunities - not hindrances! Advanced training should be presented as a fun and exciting addition to safely conduct challenging dives on vacations, that come with a private guide / instructor as a bonus! They are opportunities to help certified divers discover that they don't know what they don't know. There are operators I know of that use advanced trip denial as sales opportunities very successfully - and the customers are happy they learned to do the dive safely. I submit that the more divers certified at post ow level results in more invested and dedicated divers for operators to take diving.

3. Operators can be held liable for taking divers on dives the divers aren't certified to do. See Sotis vs. IANTD. Instructor accompanies another diver as his buddy - that the other diver is not certified to do, and when the undercertified buddy dies - the instructor is held liable.

4. Agencies that are known for shrimp cake training need to improve their level of training so students don't feel like they're getting ripped off anymore! Classes like rec Wreck - that leave customers thinking they got ripped off ruin class offerings for the whole industry. The whole business model of cheap crap training and expensive gear is wrong. But if you are going to offer real training at real training prices, then the product better be worth it! And the solution isn't the instructor going above standards for his class - because when another instructor offers the same certification from the same agency at minimum standards and half the price, it devalues the above standard instructor's class.

5. Another erroneous industry mentality is the idea that experience equals qualification. Just because one has read Scubaboard and executed an advanced dive five times without dying doesn't mean they actually know how to do it, and aren't unknowingly placing themselves in danger every time they do it. In addition to training, certification also helps ensure understanding and knowingly accepting all the risks involved with that dive. Without certification, divers might think they have planned for and accepted all the risks, but very easily could have skipped some. This is an easy enough concept for prospective students to understand - assuming you are offering a quality product!

All these points are just more proof to me that it's the agency - not the instructor. Yes - some instructors pick up the slack for their agency (which I personally don't understand - why not pick an agency where at least in their own minds they don't have to pick up the slack), but ultimately it is my humble opinion that agency culture drives how their operators and instructors relate to and conduct trips and training for divers - which I believe has resulted in the five issues above. You can choose to believe whatever you want though.

cheers
 
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It does make a difference (to me) what agency one chooses. As has been mentioned, there are certain approaches in the training,, philosophies, teaching materials, etc. that are all part of the agencies overall approach to diving education. I have certified with a few different agencies and certainly have a preference for a specific approach taken by a said agency.

That being said, within these preferences it makes a HUGE difference to me what instructor I go with. From personal chemistry to their own hard earned experience they bring to bear... as well as their willingness to go beyond the agencies minimum requirements to provide highly comprehensive and personalized training ( i.e filling in some of the gaps that may exist in my diving) All of these components are important factors I take into consideration as I try to advance in my dive training.

YMMV
 
It does make a difference (to me) what agency one chooses. As has been mentioned, there are certain approaches in the training,, philosophies, teaching materials, etc. that are all part of the agencies overall approach to diving education.

But it's the instructor that provides the ACTUAL training, philosophy etc.. not the agency. And a good instructor will supplement the materials as needs be.

One issue that's worth clarifying is whether the instructor is a product of only ONE agency, or whether they have a wide field of experience... multiple agencies.

Where an instructor has gained ALL their experience within a singular agency, then it's not surprising that they'll be limited in perspective and only able to teach whatever their agency has disseminated for them to use. They are just a conduit for delivering their agencies syllabus, philosophies etc...

And instructor with wider experience has a lot more to draw upon. They can go beyond merely what their agency supplies and teach a wider scope.

This didn't used to be a problem.. a decade or more ago it was common for tech divers, and especially instructors, to have a genuine passion for tech diving and would probably have sought training and knowledge from numerous sources.. from wherever the best quality tuition was available.

Now days we have fast-track tech training to instructor level... and instructors are doing that training because they perceive that supplying tech training is a lucrative niche commercially.

So what can you really expect from that type of tech instructor?? Not much probably, except to regurgitate an agency syllabus...

That's still very much a case of instructor quality determining training success... not an agency issue.
 
Hello All,

I have a tech 40 and Self-Reliant from PADI. I would have preferred both from TDI as "I" believe TDI's reputation and track record for being commonsensical is beyond reproach. However, geography and available instructors is an issue. My PADI instructor is excellent beyond all words--this is not just my opinion but a regional fact. I have all PADI certs because of him, et allia. He is an SDI/TDI instructor; however he works for a PADI shop. Too much for me to ask for him to do a special favor for me just so I can have an SDI/TDI cert card.

I have had one issue with my PADI SR card that was quickly fixed with a visit to this site:
Scuba Diver Course Comparison of SDI, PADI and SSI | SDI | TDI | ERDI

If TDI has a good instructor with a proven track record close to your home, use him/her. Otherwise use the excellent PADI instructor you have close by.

Remember though, I am not a tech diver, so what do I know (entry level techie yes, tech diver no)?

Thanks,
markm
 
I've done PADI, TDI, and NAUI tech courses. I find PADI to be a tedious, slow, and hand-holding progression. TDI was more for big boys and girls and more my style. NAUI was fine too.
 
I've done PADI, TDI, and NAUI tech courses. I find PADI to be a tedious, slow, and hand-holding progression. TDI was more for big boys and girls and more my style. NAUI was fine too.
Can I ask why you did the courses with 3 different companies?
 
I have done techcourses with TDI and IANTD, so 2 agencies too. I sticked with IANTD now as it is most known here. But a lot of people hold certs from different agencies (for sportsdiving I have several more). Sometimes the agency does not fit the diver, or the instructor does not fit the diver. I took the best and fastest safe way for me and the one that fitted my money. Others took other ways. None is best and none is worst. All can be a good choice for you. The best instructor is a bad instructor as it does not fit your way of learning.
 
IANTD:
Only you can dive/swim/think for yourself.

It is who you are rather than the agency.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/perdix-ai/
http://cavediveflorida.com/Rum_House.htm

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