The "other" end of the DIR question

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Over 30 yrs of diving and various situtations, work projects, etc., have me diving with several differerent gear arrangements or configurations. If I am just diving to clean the bottom of the boat, service the prop or check the cutlass bearing, or checking the anchor set, etc., I am fairly simple in rigging. If at the other extreme, it's a Great Lakes deep cold water wreck "penetration", etc., then I support the DIR configurations. Last weekend was surface hooka, with 19 cu ft pony rig clipped on as backup as we chained and positioned/retreived steel for 2 days from only 15 feet with cranes as the welders worked above.

I started diving rear pack inflation in the 70s and for some assignments and dry suits, it is the only way to go in my opinion. But for warm water recreational dives, modern BC configurations are more comfortable and portable. Extreme cold water and contaminated environments, then non-DIR fullface or helmets is a better choice. This variability of conditions has been (in my opinion) ignored or not understood by some of the DIR single solution for every thing mentality that usually has included 'attitudes'.

Although I have never gotten into cave diving, the long hose and 'necklace' 2nd stage routings have made great sence to me for if a tandem air sharing exit is required, and I have adopted for wreck diving also. I support the concept of redundancy and dive either with real doubles, or independant doubles, or asymetrical doubles (read that as detachable pony rig) as the various conditions warrant. For pony rigs with quick detachable, I have tanks fitted from 19 cu ft to 80 cu ft, and at what point is a stage bottle differtent than a pony? I also have changed my opinion, that I no longer dive double manifolds with isolators. I prefer independant valving and redundant primaries isolated.

Not every diving situation is the same, and one DIR or recrational rig is not always appropriate. An analogy is if a single tool or configuration worked for all situations, then my tool box would only include a single crescent wrench. For true safety, rig for the specific dive, with redundancy. Dive for safety with the appropriate rig ranging from warm recreational > cold wreck penetration or DIR cave > rescue & recovery > commercial. But in my 'opinion' DIR is routinely not the correct configuration.
 
NWGratefulDiver:
I guess I'm just lucky ... I've met several of the "right people". They are great dive buddies and awesome mentors. Some of them even post here.

I think there's a misconception that DIR people won't dive with non-DIR people. That's not exactly what GI meant in his famous little missive on "str****" ... at least, most DIR folks I've met don't think so.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
I've never met a DIR I didn't like... at least in person.
 
Firstly, how on earth did this thread get back on course??? It was nicely off elsewhere and then along came the newsletter and people thought about the question again...how rude!

Ok, as many may know from the other thread about DIR at the moment, still contemplating IF it is the right kind of route for me, i am also talking with a couple of instructors on that topic as well. I can see some advantages, some inconveniences and yes apart from the newly converted DIR zealots that occasionally pop up, i would say those of a GUE persuasion are just as nice and friendly as the non-GUE divers i have met or discussed things with. Sometimes the online "discussion" doesnt give the whole story and you lose that facial expression - so cant always see if a comment is serious, humourous, or whatever and that can get people off on the wrong footing.
 
I've been diving for 30 years and learned about DIR a few months ago. I ordered their book to see what it was all about. I just don't see the need for the purist approach. I think DIR has some good points but for the average diver it seems like overkill. I may move to the long reg hose and backup, but I don't have any desire to spend all that money without a good reason. Some might say "isn't your life a good reason." I feel very safe a dive and those who dive with me a very pleased with me as a buddy. So I don't plan on going DIR. I have no problem with those who do. Just don't get upset over the whole thing.
 
Being a relatively new diver (<50 dives) and just AOW I am continually looking for new information to improve the sport. I guess it is my obsessive compulsive nature, taking everything to the extreme. I heard about DIR on this forum, quickly looked up the book, hit Amazon.Com to find a copy. I anxiously awaited it's arrival and delved right into the book the day it arrived.

I finished the book, but wasn't impressed. Like others have noted it seemed oriented to technical penetration divers. I am an amature recreational diver, and I wanted to know more on how to do it right without having to buy a $300.00 light and a seven foot primary hose.

I picked a few things from the book that I liked, and am trying a few others. I guess what gets me from the DIR standpoint is what has been also noted before, if you aren't DIR you are DIW.

I get left with the impression how did the industry survive all these years without these techniques? I guess the arrogance is what bothers me the most. I also ride motorcycles and there has been an impression in the past that if you didn't ride a certain kind of bike made in Wisconsin, you really weren't a biker. Thank goodness this attitude seems to be going away. There is a new expression around "It isn't what you ride, but that you ride".

I would like to see the same attitude to us newbie divers who may have purchased a Mares HUB (I didn't so flame off), or dive without spring straps on our fins, or believe in bail out bottles or God forbid carry a non rechargeable battery flashlight, that we are also diving it right... for us.
 
plongere:
I would like to see the same attitude to us newbie divers who may have purchased a Mares HUB (I didn't so flame off), or dive without spring straps on our fins, or believe in bail out bottles or God forbid carry a non rechargeable battery flashlight, that we are also diving it right... for us.

You sound like me when I was a newbie diver.

Terkel introduced me to his DIR friends ... and when I first started diving with them the only thing they asked me to do was work on my buoyancy control, learn how to fin without kicking up silt, and work on improving my buddy skills. In other words, things I needed to do anyway. Not a word about gear ... even though at the time I wasn't wearing a single thing that would've been considered "DIR".

Since then every change I've made to my kit has been because I wanted to.

Impressions count ... there's a big difference between what you'll experience by reading about it and what you'll experience by doing. Lots of DIR divers are pretty non-judgemental ... as long as you take basic skills and safety seriously.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
NWGratefulDiver:
You sound like me when I was a newbie diver.

Terkel introduced me to his DIR friends ... and when I first started diving with them the only thing they asked me to do was work on my buoyancy control, learn how to fin without kicking up silt, and work on improving my buddy skills. In other words, things I needed to do anyway. Not a word about gear ... even though at the time I wasn't wearing a single thing that would've been considered "DIR".

Since then every change I've made to my kit has been because I wanted to.

Impressions count ... there's a big difference between what you'll experience by reading about it and what you'll experience by doing. Lots of DIR divers are pretty non-judgemental ... as long as you take basic skills and safety seriously.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

It's really amazing how just reading the Fundamentals book (or the internet)gives a person a "one dimensional" view of the DIR approach to diving. GUE training is sooo much more than what a person can find in print or on the internet.
 
NWGratefulDiver:
I think there's a misconception that DIR people won't dive with non-DIR people. That's not exactly what GI meant in his famous little missive on "str****" ... at least, most DIR folks I've met don't think so.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
Yeah, but JJ, and even MHK (a DIR instructor on this board) have specifically stated they would not dive with someone who isn't DIR. Coming from the president and a noted instructor, I would say that this is a DIR tenent that some DIR folks choose not to follow. But it is espoused by the GUE/DIR leadership...

Here's a clip from this thread:

GJ62 said, "Most DIR divers would elect to not dive, if the only choice was a non-DIR buddy... That is definitely the impression I get, at least when I read posts on this board."

MHK responded, "I think that's a fair assessment. But in all fairness, I do many DIR Demo's around the country and often times will get in the water with divers that come to the Demo to demosntrate skills or to video tape their skills but I usually limit my depth to 20' and limit the amount of students to a 3:1 instructor to diver ratio."

See page 11...
 
gj62:
Yeah, but JJ, and even MHK (a DIR instructor on this board) have specifically stated they would not dive with someone who isn't DIR. Coming from the president and a noted instructor, I would say that this is a DIR tenent that some DIR folks choose not to follow. But it is espoused by the GUE/DIR leadership...

Here's a clip from this thread:

GJ62 said, "Most DIR divers would elect to not dive, if the only choice was a non-DIR buddy... That is definitely the impression I get, at least when I read posts on this board."

MHK responded, "I think that's a fair assessment. But in all fairness, I do many DIR Demo's around the country and often times will get in the water with divers that come to the Demo to demosntrate skills or to video tape their skills but I usually limit my depth to 20' and limit the amount of students to a 3:1 instructor to diver ratio."

See page 11...

The thing is that ... while it's the "party line", the majority of DIR-trained divers I've met choose not to follow it.

I've met MHK ... I have a lot of respect for him. But if he chooses not to dive with me, I'm not going to let that affect my judgement of him as a person or a diver ... we all, regardless of our training, have to set our own criteria for who we consider suitable dive buddies. Regardless of who you trained with, you should understand that if someone is uncomfortable diving with you ... for any reason ... then you both need to find a different buddy. That's a basic tenet of buddy diving, and you should not be offended by it. That level of honesty is necessary to the safety of you both.

But I live in a different reality than JJ and MHK ... as do the majority of DIR-trained divers I have met. We dive together all the time. And I've seen quite a number of DIR-trained divers take newer, non-DIR divers out and mentor them. All they ask is that you have a willingness to listen and learn ... for the most part they're not going to try to "convert" you so much as help you learn good, solid basic skills.

Heck, I've got a four-day trip to Barkley Sound coming up here in a couple of weeks. Of the 10 divers going, half are DIR and half are not. For purely social reasons, we usually "mix and match" dive buddies on every dive. Nobody looks at your rig, or worries about which agency you trained with. All we expect of each other is that you practice good fundamental skills and take your safety (and that of your buddy) seriously. You don't have to be DIR to do that ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
gj62:
Yeah, but JJ, and even MHK (a DIR instructor on this board) have specifically stated they would not dive with someone who isn't DIR. Coming from the president and a noted instructor, I would say that this is a DIR tenent that some DIR folks choose not to follow. But it is espoused by the GUE/DIR leadership...

I can't speak for JJ or MHK but we dive with a couple of divers who are strictly DIR and I'm not talking about 20 ft dives either. One of those divers was my trimix instructor who though not a GUE instructor is definately DIR and another is a former owner of a DIR shop that we meet in Missouri a few times a year for cave dives.

While I'm not exactly ignorant about DIR I don't have any GUE training and make no claim to be DIR. We are on the same page with these folks though as far as equipment, gasses and the way the dive is conducted. In fact when I went looking for a trimix instructor I specificaly looked for one that wasn't going to make me use gasses, decompression procedures or in general do dives in a way that I had already decided wasn't right for me.

As far as "the DIR attitude", we run into lemmings on the net and many sure seem to be emulating the behavior of GI. I think we're seeing less of that since he stepped down in the WKPP. I haven't seen that attitude in the real DIR folks that I know though. When I had the shop I was a Halcyon dealer and had business dealing with JJ and in fact ran into him las week at Peacock. I've ran into MHK and I know a couple of other GUE instructors. I've been invited to audit classes they were teaching and never sensed an attitude from any of them. The ones I know are dedicated divers and eager to share what they know. They don't expend much time or effort debating how others do things they just mind their own business and do what they do and I certainly haven't seen them be insulting to any one.

In fact...last week when we were at Peacock, JJ was there teaching a class. I've heard stories from people I know about running into GUE classes and hearing nast remarks or whatever. JJ was getting his class in the water at the same time we were starting our dive. It was a Friday and there were some caver divers there. We had to wait to start our dive because the cave entrance was crowded with divers doing safety stops. A few of the cavern divers were down there kneeling on the bottom blocking the whole entrance. My wife started to comment until I signaled her to let it go but JJ and his bunch didn't give it a second look and made no comment at all. On a side note...most cave divers are good in the water but once in a while I see some one who even amazes me. I have to tell you that watching JJ drop on a single breath and slip into the entrance at P1 between the divers blocking the way seemingly in a single motion was a true thing of beauty.

The bottom line I guess is that if you're at all interested in DIR or getting GUE training I think it's silly to let the attitudes of a few wannabes put you off.
 

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