Which BP/W system to buy?

[MarcHerm]

Personally, I don't have a buckle on mine but did try it out once. It worked fine. Best of both worlds. No fancy harnesses but the ease of one in a basic webbing harness.

That is my point exactly. So I recommend a setup like that for the diving I do.

 

[DevonDiver]

I think what Tobin was getting at (and forgive me if I get this wrong), was the there is a particular skill/technique for doffing out a hogarthian harness. If the technique is known and used correctly, then doffing out of the Hog is easy (regardless of exposure suit, water conditions etc).

If a diver seeks to add a QR to their harness, because they have difficulty in removing it, then they are just taking a short-cut, rather than learning the appropriate technique. i.e. "an equipment solution to a skills problem".

This also differentiates between divers who need a harness break (physiologically impairment) and those divers who want a harness break (percieved inability or personal preference).

It is taken for granted that divers who opt for BP&W design BCDS have an appreciation and understanding of why the minimalist approach is used. When divers want to put extra components into their configuration, it just nonpluses those of us who understand what the original goal was.

Such is to be expected with the introduction of BP&W into the recreational dive market and recreational mindset Tobin....I am sure the day will come, when you are asked to produce your wings in 'glitzy pink', your harness in day-glo orange and your backplates in 'anodized neon yellow'.... oh yeah... and whether you can design a Spare Air holder for backplate attachment

 

[DennisS]

So I honestly ask: What is the difference between a (non-adjustable) hog harness and a non-adhustable harness with a single QR that I dive. If I don't open the QR bucket, I pretty much have the "feeling" of a hog harness, don't I? And, btw, I did try a hog harness with a TDI instructor locally.

Regarding your "skills problem": that is BS in my book. I do diving recreationally, that is for fun. If it is easier for me to get out of my rig when wearing dry suit, doff the rig in the water etc., than this is part of my fun while diving. If this has no real world down side, I go for it. Nothing to do with skills.

I don't have a QR, I have a Dive Rite deluxe with the chest strap. You like your set up, I like mine.

It's personal preference, some people think there is only one way. That's why the manufacturers are offering choices with their BP/Wing set ups, Halcyon has their adjustable system, DSS has their Glide system. They realize not everyone likes to do the chicken wing to put their gear on.

 

[on_two_wheels]

I'll be the voice of reason here if I may. Marc's point is rather valid. He merely laced a buckle into a continuous webbing type harness.

So Devon and/or Tobin: Please explain the risk involved with this vs not using that buckle in recreational diving. NOTE: We are not talking about a buckle breaking allowing slop in the rig while inside a cave or wreck. Just for recreational diving. And keep in mind that while he could don/doff a standard rig, what is the RISK in doing it his way?

I don't use one but thinking objectively (removing my personal bias), I don't see much risk. Even if the buckle fails, diver can surface with the rig still on his back. Tucked under his arm on the shoulder strap, I don't see anymore entanglement issues than carrying anything else on the entire rig. As I stated earlier, if it fails/breaks, simply remove it and go without the next dive or two.

Perhaps the guy CAN get in and out of a rig but is lazy. Then it's not a skills problem...just a motivational one. Given his type of diving, big deal. On the boat, I often need help getting in/out of my rig. I can do so in the water myself. However, if someone else tried to get me out of it without shears/knife....probably not happening too easily. Maybe I'm in the group Tobin referred to about being too tight. However, I went with the two finger measurement in the shoulders WITH my drysuit on.

 

[on_two_wheels]

They realize not everyone likes to do the chicken wing to put their gear on.

Either that or they wanted to appeal to a wider demographic to make more money. They're silly that way.

 

[cool_hardware52]

I'll be the voice of reason here if I may. Marc's point is rather valid. He merely laced a buckle into a continuous webbing type harness.

So Devon and/or Tobin: Please explain the risk involved with this vs not using that buckle in recreational diving. NOTE: We are not talking about a buckle breaking allowing slop in the rig while inside a cave or wreck. Just for recreational diving. And keep in mind that while he could don/doff a standard rig, what is the RISK in doing it his way?

The downsides to a buckle are the risk of failure, which is almost unknown in the water, and the inability to mount a backup light.

It's just unnecessary, not unsafe. Less is more and it's so simple to do without if the harness is properly setup.

I routinely see new back plate and wing users trying to convert a BP&W back into a jacket BC.

Weight pouches, waist pockets, AirII's, Complex harnesses, plate pads, shoulder pads, looog inflator hoses etc.

It just misses the point of simple.

I'm 51. I played football, worked in construction and desert raced motorcycles. I'm a little beat up, not nearly as flexible as I was in my 20's & 30's. With a properly set up hogarthian harness I can wiggle in and out of my doubles no problem.

My evolution has been from more complexity to less. If I don't need something it stays in my dive locker.

I routinely carry ~160+ lbs rigs up and down long flights of stairs across sandy beaches and through the surf here in SoCal. I'm not superman, but I do know how to set up a harness.


Tobin

 

[MarcHerm]

I'll be the voice of reason here if I may. Marc's point is rather valid. He merely laced a buckle into a continuous webbing type harness.

So Devon and/or Tobin: Please explain the risk involved with this vs not using that buckle in recreational diving. NOTE: We are not talking about a buckle breaking allowing slop in the rig while inside a cave or wreck. Just for recreational diving. And keep in mind that while he could don/doff a standard rig, what is the RISK in doing it his way?

I don't use one but thinking objectively (removing my personal bias), I don't see much risk. Even if the buckle fails, diver can surface with the rig still on his back. Tucked under his arm on the shoulder strap, I don't see anymore entanglement issues than carrying anything else on the entire rig. As I stated earlier, if it fails/breaks, simply remove it and go without the next dive or two.

Perhaps the guy CAN get in and out of a rig but is lazy. Then it's not a skills problem...just a motivational one. Given his type of diving, big deal. On the boat, I often need help getting in/out of my rig. I can do so in the water myself. However, if someone else tried to get me out of it without shears/knife....probably not happening too easily. Maybe I'm in the group Tobin referred to about being too tight. However, I went with the two finger measurement in the shoulders WITH my drysuit on.

Thank you for the sum up. This is exactly my point. It is a motivational issue in the sense that I add comfort without adding any real world risk to my diving. At least, this is my opinion... And it still will surprise me if some can name any real world problems with that approach with respect to the diving I do.
I like a BP/W beacuse it is streamlined and I need less weight on my belt.

So, I think, I'll leave it at that and close my discussion with a pic of the setup in action @ Komodo, Indonesia this year love it!

 

[MarcHerm]

It just misses the point of simple.

Well, Tobin, maybe they simply don't strive for maximum simplicity? I dive a BP/W beacause it is streamlined, give a nice trim and because I need less weight on the belt. Simplicity is not my first goal. And I believe, a lot of rec divers with a BP/W that do not aim for tech would agree on this. Simplicity is not a goal of its own for me....

 

[on_two_wheels]

The downsides to a buckle are the risk of failure, which is almost unknown in the water, and the inability to mount a backup light.

It's just unnecessary, not unsafe. Less is more and it's so simple to do without if the harness is properly setup.

Tobin

Not true...you can have a buckle AND a back up light, even on the same side. When I first went to a bp/w I had a buckle on my left, very low and close to the plate. The light clipped to the shoulder D-ring didn't reach that far down.

And the fact it is not unsafe is the point. People have wants and needs. If they have a want that creates no more risk then I say go right ahead. Doesn't mean I'll follow that thinking but I can at least understand it.

a lot of rec divers with a BP/W that do not aim for tech would agree on this. Simplicity is not a goal of its own for me....

I think this is what is so hard to wrap some minds around. Why wouldn't simplicity be the first goal?!!! I do understand it, whether or not I agree with it.

 

[cool_hardware52]

Not true...you can have a buckle AND a back up light, even on the same side. When I first went to a bp/w I had a buckle on my left, very low and close to the plate. The light clipped to the shoulder D-ring didn't reach that far down.

Uh well, maybe. The closer the buckle is to the back plate the harder it is to reach, particularly if one wants to close the buckle while wearing the gear. A buckle on the chest is much easier to operate.

The typical 3 "C" cell lights are pretty long after you add a bolt snap to the end. The bezel on mine are just a few inches from the backplate. A shorter light / taller diver might permit the light to ride above a very low buckle.

Tobin