Which BP/W system to buy?

[DevonDiver]

Tobin will probably correct me....

But I get the feeling that more debate about wing, backplate and harness design actually occurs on this forum, than ever happens in most major equipment manufacturers.

I like the hogarthian design. It was evolved through trial, error and accident analysis from cutting edge cave diving. Halcyon itself emerged from WKPP. It works for me...and I know it's been thought through and designed to achieve a purpose.

I don't like comfort harness etc because I think the design process consists of:

Designer #1: "More buckles on it Charlie?"
Designer #2: "Sure, the crowds will love that. Chuck a few extra straps around it also.."
Designer #1: " Nice idea. What color shall we make it?"
Designer #2: "Black of course, that tech craze is still in fashion. We'll roll out some neon variations next year."
Designer #1: " Tech what??"
Designer #2: "Never mind, it doesn't matter."
Designer #1: "Anything else to be stuck on it?"
Designer #2: "Better ask the Boss..."
Boss: "That's fine lads. The marketing boys will make a big deal of all those straps..."
Designer #1: "...and buckles...."
Boss: " They'll sell like crazy. Trendiest BCD on the market...."
Designer #2: "We did a good job then Boss?"
Boss: "Yes lads. Now....start work on the new 'Comfort II' harness. I want that design on my desk in the morning....and at least 25% more functionality....doesn't matter what that is.... but we'll need it to be flashier than the 'Comfort 1' or it won't sell...."

 

[DevonDiver]

People have wants and needs. If they have a want that creates no more risk then I say go right ahead.

Yep...and that's how so many scuba manufacturers make their money

I need a harness. :depressed:
I want a deluxe comfort harness...

Kerrrchiiiingggg.....

 

[cool_hardware52]

Tobin will probably correct me....

But I get the feeling that more debate about wing, backplate and harness design actually occurs on this forum, than ever happens in most major equipment manufacturers.

I like the hogarthian design. It was evolved through trial, error and accident analysis from cutting edge cave diving. Halcyon itself emerged from WKPP. It works for me...and I know it's been thought through and designed to achieve a purpose.

I don't like comfort harness etc because I think the design process consists of:

Designer #1: "More buckles on it Charlie?"
Designer #2: "Sure, the crowds will love that. Chuck a few extra straps around it also.."
Designer #1: " Nice idea. What color shall we make it?"
Designer #2: "Black of course, that tech craze is still in fashion. We'll roll out some neon variations next year."
Designer #1: " Tech what??"
Designer #2: "Never mind, it doesn't matter."
Designer #1: "Anything else to be stuck on it?"
Designer #2: "Better ask the Boss..."
Boss: "That's fine lads. The marketing boys will make a big deal of all those straps..."
Designer #1: "...and buckles...."
Boss: " They'll sell like crazy. Trendiest BCD on the market...."
Designer #2: "We did a good job then Boss?"
Boss: "Yes lads. Now....start work on the new 'Comfort II' harness. I want that design on my desk in the morning....and at least 25% more functionality....doesn't matter what that is.... but we'll need it to be flashier than the 'Comfort 1' or it won't sell...."

Andy, no need to correct anything.

It's always hard to sell simple vs "more features" Today's consumers are conditioned to expect more features. Just look at the "cockpit" of today's autos vs one from 20-30 years ago.

Both auto's have the same basic function, transportation, but the new one has many many many more buttons and switches and displays (all subject to malfunction BTW)

Compare a new auto to a race car. The race car will be a study in simplicity and reliability, and safety.


But, but, but I really like my creature comforts! A car without an Ipod port? How uncivilalized! Why I might have to spend whole minutes alone with my own thoughts!

Ya, kinda sad, but that's the world we live in.

Tobin

 

[Teamcasa]

Compare a new auto to a race car. The race car will be a study in simplicity and reliability, and safety.

After having built race cars for many years, I can assure you that they are miles from simplicity or reliability. The technology involved in even the most simplistic of race cars would boggle the mind.
I can also assure you none of those vehicles would be much fun taking your friends to the golf course, going to the market, a family vacation, commuting to work, or carrying a load of pipe to a drill site. The reality is that people have different needs and desires.

Tobins gear, without question is some of the finest diving gear made today. But not everyone needs or even wants only his style of gear.

Despite all this silly rancor over straps, clips and padding, one can dive perfectly safe in their Honda Accord, Chevy Pickup or BMW.

 

[on_two_wheels]

Uh well, maybe. The closer the buckle is to the back plate the harder it is to reach, particularly if one wants to close the buckle while wearing the gear. A buckle on the chest is much easier to operate.

The typical 3 "C" cell lights are pretty long after you add a bolt snap to the end. The bezel on mine are just a few inches from the backplate. A shorter light / taller diver might permit the light to ride above a very low buckle.

Tobin

Very true. I have room on mine above the light, too....probably wouldn't be comfy, though. Might even be able to go further back closer to the plate and off the shoulder but seems silly to me. Plus, if someone is putting a buckle on their harness, their not concerned with DIR compliance and, therefore, don't need to use a 3C backup and might have a smaller light. Just saying it "can" be done rather than the "can't fit _____ with a buckle."

 

[cool_hardware52]

After having built race cars for many years, I can assure you that they are miles from simplicity or reliability.

How many race cars have power windows, 6 way power adjust seats, and a multidisk CD changer?

Reliability? Yes within the context of the event. After all it's hard to win if you don't finish.

The technology involved in even the most simplistic of race cars would boggle the mind.

Yes of course, I've never suggested that the technology was simple, but competition is not kind to unneeded frills.

Tobins gear, without question is some of the finest diving gear made today. But not everyone needs or even wants only his style of gear.

I've never *ever* suggested only DSS gear is fit to dive, or that anybody that chooses some other path is a lessor diver. For you to imply that I have is uncalled for.

Again what is in question here? What is the most reasonable, most cost effective, most likely to be useful information to provide to a *New* diver looking into his *first* BP&W.

Tobin

 

[on_two_wheels]

What is the most reasonable, most cost effective, most likely to be useful information to provide to a *New* diver looking into his *first* BP&W.

Tobin

Exactly...and I think we've all seen by comments and poll results that it is to start with a web harness first. Then if it doesn't suit you, move on to other options. That fact a HUGE majority that start with the HOG style harness stick with it and it's common for those that start with something else find their way to it is evidence enough it's just financially sound to start with the cheapest alternative.

 

[RJP]

It's always hard to sell simple vs "more features" Today's consumers are conditioned to expect more features. Just look at the "cockpit" of today's autos vs one from 20-30 years ago.

I always use the stereo analogy:

When you don't know anything, it's easy to believe you want this...

Once you learn what's important vs what's superfluous, you understand that what you really want is this...

Add in the fact that the one on the bottom costs a lot more than the one on the top and most consumers get all "does not compute" and go for high-feature, low-price.

 

[cool_hardware52]

I always use the stereo analogy:

I was introduced to a term by former consumer marketing type recently:

KPD

Knobs

Per

Dollar

So prevalent is the approach you cite that there's a industry acronym for it.

Tobin

 

[Codyjp]

...Why I might have to spend whole minutes alone with my own thoughts!

Ya, kinda sad, but that's the world we live in.

Tobin

Quote of the month. Thanks Tobin!