New BP/W: Halycon or DSS?
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ScubaFeenD
Contributor
I think you mean "never"
Yep, you're correct. Sadly, I type fast and rarely edit or re-read my posts.
Deep South Divers
Contributor
Halcyon. Not all the way, though.
I'm a fan of Scott Koplin's plates (Oxycheq).
Webbing, hardware and crotch strap from Dive Gear Express | Equipment for Experienced Divers
Halcyon wings for all of my rigs.
ScubaPro cam bands. They come apart completely, allowing you to rig up with the backplate laying down, rather than trying to slide a backplate and wing over a standing tank... A huge advantage on a rocking boat.
Single tank rigs get a "light" STA (the hourglass-shaped one, not the "mini") from Scott Koplin (Oxycheq).
Halcyon and Oxycheq plates are very similar, but the Oxys are made with a nicer finish and better deburring, IMHO.
In my experience, there's been absolutely no equal to Halcyon's wings - the others that I've tried always have plastic hoses that are too long and need to be modified to be of proper length, and their geometry is better thought out and streamlined than others I've tried. Halcyon's customer service is tops, too - any time I've ever had a problem with anything, I have always gotten a replacement free of charge, usually in 2 business days (everything I do is by mail, and so they often have sent me product before receiving a part back). For what it's worth, my diving is commercial, and I own several rigs, all with Halcyon wings. The only problem I've ever had with any of them is when one of my guys doesn't take care of his gear and holes a wing or unthreads a stitch. Again, I've never had to patch or sew - I've always gotten a free replacement.
I'm not a fan of the "H" logo webbing, and find that Dive Gear Express' webbing is the right thickness and stiffness, without being overly so. Keeps it's color, too, even in serious conditions and after thousands of dives.
I haven't seen Halcyon's Infinity system, but my general feeling is the same as what's expressed above - that plastic parts and additional complexity is somewhat diluting Halcyon's "simplicity and ruggedness" image... Perhaps this is a good thing, but IMHO, it's not.
When buying gear, I recommend going straight to the source and cutting out as many middlemen as possible - buy directly from Oxycheq, Dive Gear Express, and Halcyon. If you can't buy direct from Halcyon, buy from the owner's (JJ's) dive shop - Extreme Exposure in High Springs, FL. That way, any issues you have with pricing, product, shipping, etc. can always be addressed directly.
Tobin's got an excellent reputation here on SB. I have never done business with him, but have seen him treat customers very poorly, right here on this board. It was so painful to watch that I actually stepped in and said something, which resulted in him having me banned from his "section" of ScubaBoard. I literally spend upwards of $30k/yr on dive gear - Tobin will never see one penny of that, based on how I saw him work.
...But apparently my distaste for his methodolgy is not shared. His reputation here is stellar.
If I had to choose Infinity vs. DSS directly (and couldn't build my own like I mention above), I'd do a Halcyon Infinity (Eclipse 30), remove all of the plastic parts (it'd therefore be a simple Halcyon BP/wing) and replace the webbing with all black webbing from Dive Gear Express (just 'cause I think the little H's are a bit rediculous-looking). I'd then mount unbent D-rings on my chest (replacing the bent ones - I'm not a fan of them, even in cold water) and call it a day. The Halcyon backplate is a little "blingy" (it's shiny), but very good quality.
The knobs on the bottom dump of all wings can be removed. Halcyon used to sell them without a knob - now all of their wings have knobs that can be removed. The knob is a nonissue until you wear multiple stage bottles and the knob gets stuck between the bottles and may "burp" your wing inadvertently. Knobless bottom dumps are less of a problem than they sound - when you reach back, you're not looking for the string anyway - you're looking for the dump valve. Make an "okay" sign around it and pull - the string's there and works fine with or without the knob.
For what it's worth, those bottom dumps without knobs still have a knot... So the difference is really "knob vs. knot," not "knob vs. no knob." The difference is very slight, functionally no different, and only an issue when you're wearing multiple stages.
I'm a fan of Scott Koplin's plates (Oxycheq).
Webbing, hardware and crotch strap from Dive Gear Express | Equipment for Experienced Divers
Halcyon wings for all of my rigs.
ScubaPro cam bands. They come apart completely, allowing you to rig up with the backplate laying down, rather than trying to slide a backplate and wing over a standing tank... A huge advantage on a rocking boat.
Single tank rigs get a "light" STA (the hourglass-shaped one, not the "mini") from Scott Koplin (Oxycheq).
Halcyon and Oxycheq plates are very similar, but the Oxys are made with a nicer finish and better deburring, IMHO.
In my experience, there's been absolutely no equal to Halcyon's wings - the others that I've tried always have plastic hoses that are too long and need to be modified to be of proper length, and their geometry is better thought out and streamlined than others I've tried. Halcyon's customer service is tops, too - any time I've ever had a problem with anything, I have always gotten a replacement free of charge, usually in 2 business days (everything I do is by mail, and so they often have sent me product before receiving a part back). For what it's worth, my diving is commercial, and I own several rigs, all with Halcyon wings. The only problem I've ever had with any of them is when one of my guys doesn't take care of his gear and holes a wing or unthreads a stitch. Again, I've never had to patch or sew - I've always gotten a free replacement.
I'm not a fan of the "H" logo webbing, and find that Dive Gear Express' webbing is the right thickness and stiffness, without being overly so. Keeps it's color, too, even in serious conditions and after thousands of dives.
I haven't seen Halcyon's Infinity system, but my general feeling is the same as what's expressed above - that plastic parts and additional complexity is somewhat diluting Halcyon's "simplicity and ruggedness" image... Perhaps this is a good thing, but IMHO, it's not.
When buying gear, I recommend going straight to the source and cutting out as many middlemen as possible - buy directly from Oxycheq, Dive Gear Express, and Halcyon. If you can't buy direct from Halcyon, buy from the owner's (JJ's) dive shop - Extreme Exposure in High Springs, FL. That way, any issues you have with pricing, product, shipping, etc. can always be addressed directly.
Tobin's got an excellent reputation here on SB. I have never done business with him, but have seen him treat customers very poorly, right here on this board. It was so painful to watch that I actually stepped in and said something, which resulted in him having me banned from his "section" of ScubaBoard. I literally spend upwards of $30k/yr on dive gear - Tobin will never see one penny of that, based on how I saw him work.
...But apparently my distaste for his methodolgy is not shared. His reputation here is stellar.
If I had to choose Infinity vs. DSS directly (and couldn't build my own like I mention above), I'd do a Halcyon Infinity (Eclipse 30), remove all of the plastic parts (it'd therefore be a simple Halcyon BP/wing) and replace the webbing with all black webbing from Dive Gear Express (just 'cause I think the little H's are a bit rediculous-looking). I'd then mount unbent D-rings on my chest (replacing the bent ones - I'm not a fan of them, even in cold water) and call it a day. The Halcyon backplate is a little "blingy" (it's shiny), but very good quality.
The knobs on the bottom dump of all wings can be removed. Halcyon used to sell them without a knob - now all of their wings have knobs that can be removed. The knob is a nonissue until you wear multiple stage bottles and the knob gets stuck between the bottles and may "burp" your wing inadvertently. Knobless bottom dumps are less of a problem than they sound - when you reach back, you're not looking for the string anyway - you're looking for the dump valve. Make an "okay" sign around it and pull - the string's there and works fine with or without the knob.
For what it's worth, those bottom dumps without knobs still have a knot... So the difference is really "knob vs. knot," not "knob vs. no knob." The difference is very slight, functionally no different, and only an issue when you're wearing multiple stages.
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Call up Halcyon and tell JJ that he doesn't know squat about diving and that you want to school him on proper BC design.
I have n I've yet to get a satisfactory explanation on why the wing is bigger on the top instead of where lift is needed. H is just a brand, nothing more nothing less and the pioneers of the commercial bp/w is actually dive-rite.
H took the hog concept, dr gear, made modifications and marketed it along with their training.
SangP
Deep South Divers,
Unlike you I don't have the same warm fuzzy feelings for H wings and I'm curious about your comment on how streamline H wings r.
I found the oxycheq mach v a lot more streamline, with the super fabric outer wing material (extreme versions) they're even tougher and the length of hoses can be ordered too.
Everyone's different and that's just my 2 cents.
SangP
Unlike you I don't have the same warm fuzzy feelings for H wings and I'm curious about your comment on how streamline H wings r.
I found the oxycheq mach v a lot more streamline, with the super fabric outer wing material (extreme versions) they're even tougher and the length of hoses can be ordered too.
Everyone's different and that's just my 2 cents.
SangP
Deep South Divers
Contributor
Ordered length or not, they still have plastic hoses... Which is much more commonly a point of failure than the fabric.
Agreed that the Mach V Extreme's YouTube video is nothing shy of totally impressive. That said, I can't imagine anyone abusing wings more than my guys do, as they're commonly welding and cutting and burning and working under boats encrusted with oysters and barnacles. Not once have any of them punctured through the fabric on an Eclipse or Explorer or Evolve wing. I've seen them hole wetsuits and drysuits on exposed nails on a wooden dock, but never hole a wing that way.
Now, separating seams... Yeah, that's not all that unusual. But we've seen that with all wings after two or three thousand dives, and Halcyon's the only company that replaces the wings no charge, under warranty, no questions asked - even though we're commercial guys who plainly live in the stuff and run it 'till it dies.
With regards to your comment about the wing being larger at the top... Wings are only fully inflated at the surface - with that exception, a wing is almost always only slightly filled. Thus, the lifting force is centered wherever the bubble is, which has much more to do with body position than the shape of the wing.
At the surface, if the wing was larger at the bottom than at the top, it would add to a wing's propensity to force the diver face-forward. With the majority of the lift at the top of the wing, this action is reduced.
For what it's worth, if you WERE to inflate a wing fully while submerged, it would make more sense to have a larger lifting force near the head of the diver, as that's the heaviest part of the tank - the valve. Throw a tank into the water (either empty or full, but it's more pronounced when it's empty), and you'll see it stand on it's valve. Thus, Halcyon wings - with their lifting force more prominent at the top of the wing - are more balanced than other designs.
Agreed that the Mach V Extreme's YouTube video is nothing shy of totally impressive. That said, I can't imagine anyone abusing wings more than my guys do, as they're commonly welding and cutting and burning and working under boats encrusted with oysters and barnacles. Not once have any of them punctured through the fabric on an Eclipse or Explorer or Evolve wing. I've seen them hole wetsuits and drysuits on exposed nails on a wooden dock, but never hole a wing that way.
Now, separating seams... Yeah, that's not all that unusual. But we've seen that with all wings after two or three thousand dives, and Halcyon's the only company that replaces the wings no charge, under warranty, no questions asked - even though we're commercial guys who plainly live in the stuff and run it 'till it dies.
With regards to your comment about the wing being larger at the top... Wings are only fully inflated at the surface - with that exception, a wing is almost always only slightly filled. Thus, the lifting force is centered wherever the bubble is, which has much more to do with body position than the shape of the wing.
At the surface, if the wing was larger at the bottom than at the top, it would add to a wing's propensity to force the diver face-forward. With the majority of the lift at the top of the wing, this action is reduced.
For what it's worth, if you WERE to inflate a wing fully while submerged, it would make more sense to have a larger lifting force near the head of the diver, as that's the heaviest part of the tank - the valve. Throw a tank into the water (either empty or full, but it's more pronounced when it's empty), and you'll see it stand on it's valve. Thus, Halcyon wings - with their lifting force more prominent at the top of the wing - are more balanced than other designs.
Hi SeaJay,
Thanks for the comments, its good to know that the wings can really take an abuse and keep on going The hose of the H is equally as vulnerable as the Oxycheq and although, I agree that the tank with regulator is usually head heavy, the thing is most my friends the feeling of sinking feet is more common than sinking head first.
With a doubles setup/manifolds that should be n even greater concern but the doubles eclipse / evolve don't have the big head like the singles wing so it's strange that the larger head was made for singles tank diving.
For what's it's worth, I would give the mach v 30 a try just to see if it's as good if not better than the eclipse and to test if the customer service is any good too. I got my stuff from Edd at caveadventurers n he assured me that any issues n he'll take care of it.
Cheers,
SangP
Thanks for the comments, its good to know that the wings can really take an abuse and keep on going
The hose of the H is equally as vulnerable as the Oxycheq and although, I agree that the tank with regulator is usually head heavy, the thing is most my friends the feeling of sinking feet is more common than sinking head first. With a doubles setup/manifolds that should be n even greater concern but the doubles eclipse / evolve don't have the big head like the singles wing so it's strange that the larger head was made for singles tank diving.
For what's it's worth, I would give the mach v 30 a try just to see if it's as good if not better than the eclipse and to test if the customer service is any good too. I got my stuff from Edd at caveadventurers n he assured me that any issues n he'll take care of it.
Cheers,
SangP
I don't understand the comment about other brands having corrugated hoses that are too long. I would agree that SOME brands do; the Deep Outdoors wing I have comes with too long a hose, but if you request a shorter one, they will provide it.
But DSS ships with short corrugated hoses. In fact, people who receive them sometimes complain about it.
If you are going to order a Halcyon setup and then replace the D rings and the harness, why not buy somebody else's setup and a Halcyon wing, if you're so fond of them?
I don't think there is enough difference in shape in singles wings to make a big issue of it. Doubles wings -- that's different. Their shapes vary greatly, and being able to put the lift where you need it is important, which is why I dive Deep Outdoors doubles wings. But all our singles wings are DSS.
But DSS ships with short corrugated hoses. In fact, people who receive them sometimes complain about it.
If you are going to order a Halcyon setup and then replace the D rings and the harness, why not buy somebody else's setup and a Halcyon wing, if you're so fond of them?
I don't think there is enough difference in shape in singles wings to make a big issue of it. Doubles wings -- that's different. Their shapes vary greatly, and being able to put the lift where you need it is important, which is why I dive Deep Outdoors doubles wings. But all our singles wings are DSS.
scuba_moron
Contributor
Are you saying their corrugated hose is made of plastic?
Mine wasn't plastic, but the length was longer than my preference, so I changed it to a shorter generic one that is identical to the H.
scuba_moron
Contributor
I am leg heavy, and I prefer Mach V's wider width at the bottom as it trims out slight better than the Eclipse. Also, Oxcheq's bladder is made with thicker material than "H".
and I prefer the slim profile.
I have items from both Halcyon, Dive Rite, and Oxcheq. I mix and match for what works best for me.
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